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Started By
Message
re: Rush just mentioned Justice Kennedy's take on Gay Wedding cake case
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:36 pm to Salmon
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:36 pm to Salmon
quote:
so there are no sexual identities, then?
a person cannot be discriminated against due to their sexual identity because they don't exist?
so a business could legally discriminate against all hetero people? or virgins?
just trying to understand the position
IDK.
Just let the baker bake cakes that he wants to bake.
2
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:36 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
quote:
and side with the baker.
Yep. I just wonder how those supporting the gay guys would feel if the gays owned the bakery and ole Bubba walked in wanting a big ole Confederate flag cake.
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:37 pm to GumboPot
quote:
Just let the baker bake cakes that he wants to bake.
1000% agree
just want to understand the OP's position
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:37 pm to KeyserSoze999
quote:
you don't remember if you chose to have sex with a man or not?
Probably doesn't remember making the choice to get out of bed today either. Or the choice to walk instead of crawl. Or the choice to breathe through his mouth instead of his nose.
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:37 pm to KeyserSoze999
quote:
agree
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:37 pm to GumboPot
quote:
Just let the baker bake cakes that he wants to bake.
You mean actual freedom?
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:39 pm to KeyserSoze999
quote:
he said that kennedy drilled down and implied that
'being gay' is not an identity, but rather 'being gay' is a course of action choice
He did not.
He made a supposition to a counselor that was arguing that Masterpiece denied service based solely on identity.
He said that would be an oversimplification.
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:39 pm to Salmon
TigerV really provided sound reasoning.
I was just brainstorming.
I was just brainstorming.
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:39 pm to TrueTiger
quote:
You mean actual freedom?
quote:
You laugh. BUT, if you let that happen, frickers will start breeding Labradors with poodles and shite!
slippery slope, dude. Slippery frickin' slope
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:41 pm to Salmon
I don't understand this whole identity crap. You are what you are. Why does it matter? If you are male... Then that is what you are. If you are homosexual then that is what you are. None of this crap should have any relevance in politics. Seems maybe it belongs on a science forum.
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:42 pm to GumboPot
this is what I want the OP to clarify
because if he believes this, this would open up all kinds of legal battles
quote:
he point is that if its an identity then it is discrimination, if its a choice then it is not discrimination
because if he believes this, this would open up all kinds of legal battles
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:42 pm to TigerV
quote:
Not how I heard it, being gay was an identidy and the baker did not discriminate based on being gay, but the action of getting married; therefore he did not discriminate them for being gay. Th plaintiff claimed discrimination against their identidy but the identity is them and not the action of getting married and he would have let them buy a cake in the store that was already made therefore no discrimination
That is exactly what was said, have no idea how the OP derived what he posted from what was actually said by Rush and Justice Kennedy.
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:44 pm to KeyserSoze999
What if the swelling never goes down?
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:45 pm to KeyserSoze999
OP did a terrible job of summarizing the point Rush was making about Justice Kennedy’s line of question. Justice Kennedy’s point was that there is a huge difference between discriminating against someone because they happen to be gay and refusing to participate in an action that is in conflict with your beliefs. Case in point, if the baker had refused to sell them anything in his store because they are gay, that is discrimination based on sexual orientation and that is illegal. However, he agreed to do business with them, but he declined to participate in the event because of his religious beliefs.
The question is not whether or not a business has a right to deny service to gays or other groups, but whether or not a business has the right to decline to participate in an event they oppose for religious or other moral reasons. For instance, let’s say you go to your local bakery owned by a person of color, and request that he bake a custom cake celebrating the legacy of Bull Connor or the birthday of the Klan. Does that business owner have a right to refuse to bake you a cake or do you take him to court for discrimination and force him to bake you a Klan cake?
The question is not whether or not a business has a right to deny service to gays or other groups, but whether or not a business has the right to decline to participate in an event they oppose for religious or other moral reasons. For instance, let’s say you go to your local bakery owned by a person of color, and request that he bake a custom cake celebrating the legacy of Bull Connor or the birthday of the Klan. Does that business owner have a right to refuse to bake you a cake or do you take him to court for discrimination and force him to bake you a Klan cake?
This post was edited on 12/7/17 at 2:47 pm
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:45 pm to GumboPot
quote:
Then the opposite is true. Being hetero itself is a choice, whether you act on it or not, but it is not an identity...However I just have a propensity to choose hetero. Kind of like I choose to eat french fries and choose not to eat steamed spinach, because I was born to like french fries and hate steamed spinach
Your body is biologically designed to eat both. You choose based on personal preference. A better analogy would be that you choose to eat french fries rather than eat rocks. Your body has not been designed by milions of years of evolution to eat rocks. You can choose to eat rocks, but it is incongruous with your evolutionary design. If you’re born a male, your penis is biologically designed to enter a vagina. Or the “in” door, as opposed to the “out” door. You can still choose door #2 (pun intended), but it’s not what your body was designed to do.
For the record, I don’t think being gay is a choice - I’m just correcting the analogy.
This post was edited on 12/7/17 at 3:47 pm
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:46 pm to Blizzard of Chizz
I'm glad people clarified Kennedy's position because I was pretty horrified that someone in his position would take the OP's stance
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:47 pm to Blizzard of Chizz
quote:
Blizzard of Chizz
Thank you for that post
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:50 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
It’s all good.
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:53 pm to KeyserSoze999
No gay gene = choice
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:53 pm to EA6B
The exact transcript for those interested:
Full Transcript for those interested.
quote:
MR. COLE: So I -- I think -- I think, Your Honor, if -- if identity discrimination is involved -- and there's no question that identity discrimination is involved here because, again, the only thing the baker knew was the identity of the people who were -
JUSTICE GINSBURG: Mr. Cole, maybe I
JUSTICE GORSUCH: I -- I -- but -
JUSTICE GINSBURG: -- I misunderstood your answer to Justice Gorsuch. Did you say you could refuse to sell the identical cake with the red cross?
MR. COLE: If -- if he is not doing it on the basis of the identity -- a protected identity. The Ku Klux Klan as an organization is not a protected class. So, yes, the LB -- the public accommodations law does not say you must treat everybody; it says you cannot discriminate on the basis of protected categories.
JUSTICE KENNEDY: Well, but this whole concept of identity is a slightly -- suppose he says: Look, I have nothing against -- against gay people. He says but I just don't think they should have a marriage because that's contrary to my beliefs. It's not -
MR. COLE: Yeah.
JUSTICE KENNEDY: It's not their identity; it's what they're doing.
MR. COLE: Yeah.
JUSTICE KENNEDY: I think it's -- your identity thing is just too facile.
Full Transcript for those interested.
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