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Milton Friedman, neoliberalism & modern conservatives

Posted on 9/29/26 at 11:15 am
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
63489 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 11:15 am
First, let's get clear about what neoliberalism is. It's an actual political and economic philosophy that favors free-market capitalism, privatization, deregulation, and a reduction in government.
quote:

German thinker Alexander Rüstow coined the word “neoliberalism” in August 1938 at the Colloque Walter Lippmann in Paris. French thinker Louis Rougier ran this meeting of 26 liberal scholars. Those present included Friedrich von Hayek, Ludwig von Mises, Raymond Aron, Wilhelm Röpke, Jacques Rueff, and Michael Polanyi.
LINK

Reagan was a proponent of what we have adopted as neoliberalism (deregulation, free markets, reduced government spending). He met with Milton Friedman when he was governor of California to discuss school funding and vouchers. Reagan was familiar with Friedman's articles about these topics, notably his essay "The Role of Government in Education." I'm mentioning Reagan because his governorship (and later presidency) helped translate many of these market-oriented ideas into American conservative politics, and his relationship with Friedman provides a useful bridge between the intellectual theory and the political movement.

Something that tickles me here is when posters claim familiarity with pivotal works, then post claims that directly contradict those works. I see this every time The Road to Serfdom is mentioned and I point out that Hayek explicitly advocates for legitimate government action where market prices cannot capture harms like pollution, and argues that guaranteeing everyone a minimum of food, shelter, and clothing is compatible with a free society.

Likewise, Friedman distinguishes between general education and specialized vocational training, arguing that elementary and liberal secondary education provide broader societal benefits that justify public subsidy in a way specialized job training does not. Friedman calls these broader societal benefits "neighborhood effects."

I don't care whether Friedman and Hayek were "really liberals" or "really conservatives." A lot of positions now treated as axiomatic on the American right don't actually follow from the thinkers routinely cited as the intellectual foundation for these principles. So when/where and why did this shift occur? How did "markets generally allocate resources better than governments" become "virtually any government involvement in a market is inherently communist"? When did skepticism about government's ability to solve a problem become skepticism that we have any collective responsibility to address the problem at all? I'm thinking about environmental destruction, homelessness and mental illness with the last question.

ETA: I also wonder why the American right embraced neoliberalism (or the modern version of it) and not the American left? Obviously Democrats have embraced certain aspects of neoliberalism, but Republicans really seem to hang their hats on "free market solutions." I guess this is more explicitly sociological and I'm not really aware of all the historical nuances that led to Republicans planting their flag here.
This post was edited on 9/29/26 at 11:23 am
Posted by Penrod
Member since Jan 2011
58053 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 11:21 am to
quote:

How did "markets generally allocate resources better than governments" become "virtually any government involvement in a market is inherently communist"?

Hardly anyone thinks that. The example you cited about pollution is understood by everyone. And there is almost unanimity on that.

It's true that there is a lot of ironical citing of past scholars, but that is what you expect on what is essentially a middle brow message board.
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
63489 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 11:24 am to
quote:

Hardly anyone thinks that. The example you cited about pollution is understood by everyone. And there is almost unanimity on that.



Climate change and data centers come to mind. Preserving our national parks comes to mind. Ensuring guardrails when fracking and drilling for oil in the Gulf comes to mind.

quote:

what is essentially a middle brow message board.
this might be a bit generous
This post was edited on 9/29/26 at 11:26 am
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
130009 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 11:26 am to
Holy shite!!
Hayek advocated for welfare?
This changes everything!!

(It changes nothing.)

Thanks. Drive through.
Posted by Hawgnsincebirth55
Gods country
Member since Sep 2016
18853 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 11:31 am to
quote:

Climate change
explain to me what, exactly you mean by this? I can give you lots and lots of quotes of leftists who make outrageous claims about how if we don’t stop doing X Y Z then the world as we know it will be gone by 2020,2025,2030 etc. they’ve been parroting this since at least the 90s and yet time rolls on and no serious disasters. Also, one volcano goes off produces more carbon dioxide than all of human society since the Industrial Revolution. Also, carbon dioxide is not a boogey man. It makes fricking plants grow.


ETA: this isn’t even getting to the fact that even if everything you say is true, it doesn’t make a good goddamn but of difference if 3 billion Asians are still burning coal, dumping toxic sludge into rivers, and overall ruining the globe from the other side of the planet. You have to be a complete fricking retard to believe “climate change” (had to change it from global warming since that actually stopped happening, because that’s just what the planet fricking does, gets hotter, then it gets colder)
This post was edited on 9/29/26 at 11:37 am
Posted by el Gaucho
He/They
Member since Dec 2010
60732 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 11:36 am to
We don’t say neoliberalism anymore now we call it conservatism
Posted by TejasHorn
High Plains Driftin'
Member since Mar 2007
11941 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 11:40 am to
Industry and human activity emit exponentially more CO2 than all the world’s volcanos combined.

At least do a little research before posting nonsense. It makes your case immediately invalid.
Posted by TheHarahanian
Actually not Harahan as of 6/2023
Member since May 2017
24543 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 11:46 am to

Our government specifically takes any cause, immediately overreaches, and steers it to serve a political agenda and/or makes it into a gravy train for themselves. People are justified to be suspicious, especially of our federal government.

Example: Even if you believe the government can impact climate in a positive way (I don’t), every proposed plan either serves wealth redistribution or delivers massive amounts of money to foreign governments with no guaranteed changes on their part, or both.
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
63489 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 11:52 am to
quote:

Our government specifically takes any cause, immediately overreaches, and steers it to serve a political agenda and/or makes it into a gravy train for themselves. People are justified to be suspicious, especially of our federal government.

I don't disagree.

quote:

Example: Even if you believe the government can impact climate in a positive way (I don’t), every proposed plan either serves wealth redistribution or delivers massive amounts of money to foreign governments with no guaranteed changes on their part, or both.

I won't argue this, but my broader point was why we don't try to come up with solutions that don't rely on government? Or like focus on local government solutions even?
Posted by SCLibertarian
Conway, South Carolina
Member since Aug 2013
42972 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 12:00 pm to
quote:

When did skepticism about government's ability to solve a problem become skepticism that we have any collective responsibility to address the problem at all? I'm thinking about environmental destruction, homelessness and mental illness with the last question.

Posted by Y.A. Tittle
Member since Sep 2003
111934 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 12:03 pm to
quote:

When did skepticism about government's ability to solve a problem become skepticism that we have any collective responsibility to address the problem at all?


When the "problem" is basically a contrivance.

See, e.g., climate change.
Posted by Taxing Authority
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
64287 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 12:07 pm to
quote:

I see this every time The Road to Serfdom is mentioned and I point out that Hayek explicitly advocates for legitimate government action where market prices cannot capture harms like pollution, and argues that guaranteeing everyone a minimum of food, shelter, and clothing is compatible with a free society.
Nothing outs people better than confusing liberalism and anarchy. They are not equivalents. I’ve seen MAGA, GOPE, and DSA types all make the mistake.

But then again, many associate “liberalism” with democrat dogma. Democrats haven’t been for any form of liberalism in decades. They are (and were) authoritarians. GOPE is too.

And you can drop the “neo” prefix. There is nothing new about liberal thought. Been around since our founding (hell, the reformation for thst matter).
This post was edited on 9/29/26 at 12:10 pm
Posted by ShrimperDan
Fernandina
Member since Jul 2026
332 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 12:08 pm to
quote:

Something that tickles me here is when posters claim familiarity with pivotal works, then post claims that directly contradict those works. I see this every time The Road to Serfdom is mentioned and I point out that Hayek explicitly advocates for legitimate government action where market prices cannot capture harms like pollution, and argues that guaranteeing everyone a minimum of food, shelter, and clothing is compatible with a free society.


Not everyone is smart or well-read on the internet. You can lay out a legitimate need for funding for your municipality and some people will always vote no on more taxes no matter any context or justification. And some will hear some policy with the right buzzwords like "inclusion" and always support it no matter what it actually does.

quote:

When did skepticism about government's ability to solve a problem become skepticism that we have any collective responsibility to address the problem at all? I'm thinking about environmental destruction, homelessness and mental illness with the last question.


The Catholic view of that laid out in Ethics and the National Economy (or solidarism if you just want to read about the concept itself) lays out a few principles I personally gravitate toward a bit, but most notably is that while we have a moral obligation to address issues it is also not solely on any one entity, and the farther down the escalatory chain of governance we can go to address an issue the better.

The government should address issues, but it also can't be the only one doing the lifting. The goal is to create systems where intervention is no longer needed, not where intervention is a leg of the stool the impacted sit on. So with the homelessness example, a significant portion of homeless people currently are strung out or what I like to call "professionally homeless". Those people have an obligation to try and help themselves, and a lot of work has shown that if homeless people do make an effort they usually don't stay homeless very long.

With mental illness, to me its pretty clear we should have heavily reformed the asylum system with significant oversight backed by science and ethics instead of outright dumping it.

I would say most conservatives are very pro-environment. They just need you to actually make a case for how a policy is going to help.
Posted by deltaland
Member since Mar 2011
104579 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 12:09 pm to
4cubbies

Didn’t read

Voted down
Posted by TideCPA
Member since Jan 2012
14496 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 12:10 pm to
quote:

I won't argue this, but my broader point was why we don't try to come up with solutions that don't rely on government? Or like focus on local government solutions even?
Because the neoliberal solution lies in free-market capitalism. If enough of the consumer base prioritizes climate solutions over some other factor, they will shift consumption behavior toward companies who prioritize those solutions.

As of now, the "climate emergency" is a luxury, non-core, belief set, as the AI gold rush has exposed. When you have governments making regulations based on luxury belief sets, you effectively neuter the population's ability to compete on a global stage. That's why zero AI advancement is coming out of Europe.
Posted by goatmilker
Castle Anthrax
Member since Feb 2009
77748 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 12:12 pm to
quote:

First, let's get clear about what neoliberalism is. It's an actual political and economic philosophy that favors free-market capitalism, privatization, deregulation, and a reduction in government.


Which dims in the house or Senate fits this?
Posted by TheHarahanian
Actually not Harahan as of 6/2023
Member since May 2017
24543 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 12:13 pm to
quote:

why we don't try to come up with solutions that don't rely on government?

You mean like Elon Musk is doing?

quote:

focus on local government solutions

You mean like the Cali government that took tens of millions for a high speed train and vanished it? Or the L.A. city government that’s produced an uncontrollable fire that destroyed neighborhoods, and now is slow walking permits to rebuild? Or the NOLA city government that has a years-long pothole repair schedule? Or the Jackson city employee credit union that’s trying to recover 90 million in funds that nobody noticed was being stolen?

NOLA and Jackson can no longer reliably provide clean drinking water. In Jackson’s case, they had a huge trust fund set up decades ago to maintain the water system, and the city’s elected officials vanished the trust fund in the last 30 years.

California made it illegal to investigate government corruption. So the foxes no longer have to guard the henhouse there because they have the cops and courts to guard it for them.
This post was edited on 9/29/26 at 12:25 pm
Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
118244 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 12:24 pm to
quote:

Climate change and data centers come to mind. Preserving our national parks comes to mind.


Climate change is fake. NGOs used falisfied data to get money from the U.N. and other 'world govt' entities because it would take global law to make everyone switch to windmills. NASA falsified tons of stuff to get funding for a new cause since space exploration was a low priority. I discovered this in 1998 research. Most thinking people caught on by 2020. But it took a lot of doom and gloom predictions never coming true to convince folks. Glad to see that Trump is the first president to catch on and announce that it's fake.

National Parks would be better run and cheaper to attend if they were run privately. But people like you are sure the rich would just burn everything down for fun.
This post was edited on 9/29/26 at 12:27 pm
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
71522 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 12:25 pm to
The problem was neoliberalism tried to subvert nationalism by extending free market principles to international markets with vastly different standards trying to make apples to apples equivalentcies. Neoliberalism became a trojan horse to erode rights rather than protect them, to export economic prosperity rather than build it, and to circumvent democratic institutions rather than to strengthen them. It eventually became a trojan horse for cultural marxism and radical Islam.

Neoliberalism stops making sense once you try to implement it beyond national borders.
This post was edited on 9/29/26 at 12:26 pm
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
63489 posts
Posted on 9/29/26 at 12:29 pm to
quote:

And you can drop the “neo” prefix. There is nothing new about liberal thought. Been around since our founding (hell, the reformation for thst matter).

what the average person associates with the term "liberal" is not what it meant historically. I didn't invent the term neoliberalism. If I understand things correctly, neoliberalism was developed partly in response to the perceived failures of classical laissez-faire liberalism.
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