re: Milton Friedman, neoliberalism & modern conservatives

quote:

---

What alternatives to government have Conservatives proposed to protect the environment?

---

I must not be explaining this well enough. Conservatives, like everyone else, believe that it is the government’s rightful job to protect the environment, so there is no incentive for them to come up with a different way.

Now, if I proposed a trillion dollars of new spending to save roly-pollies presumably you would oppose that. This doesn’t mean you are against the government protecting the environment; it just means you think the roly-pollies are doing just fine, and this isn’t necessary. So it is with conservatives and climate change - to take just one of your examples.

I meant the post immediately above your last one I responded to.

He explained it well.

quote:

---

Look up.

You could just name one.

---

In this instance, "up" is being used as a direction, being the location you are supposed to look.

Liberals were mugged by reality and became neo conservatives.

They teamed up with Reagan against a common enemy. The communists.

This will help explain post Reagan.

quote:

---

1. The Centrist establishment: "Third Way" or "Neoliberals"

In the 1990s, the mainstream Democratic Party (led by Bill Clinton) adapted to the Reagan era by adopting market-friendly, fiscally conservative policies.

The Third Way: This was the official branding used by politicians like Bill Clinton and the UK's Tony Blair. It was presented as a centrist compromise that rejected big-government social programs while embracing global trade, welfare reform, and financial deregulation.

"Neoliberal" (as an insult): Today, the political left frequently uses "neoliberal" as a pejorative label for establishment, center-left politicians. It implies they talk like liberals on social issues but act like Reagan-style capitalists on economic issues.

---

quote:

---

2. The Traditional Left: "Progressives"

Because mainstream "liberalism" became so closely tied to corporate interests and free-market globalization in the late 20th century, the anti-corporate left largely abandoned the word.

Progressives: Activists and politicians who favored the original economic intervention of FDR's New Deal—like universal healthcare, labor unions, and wealth redistribution—began calling themselves progressives to distance themselves from centrist "liberals".

---

quote:

---

3. The Original Free-Marketeers: "Classical Liberals" or "Libertarians"

Because the word "liberal" in the U.S. historically came to mean center-left or big government, the people who actually believed in the original 18th-century meaning of liberalism (free markets, minimal government, strict individual rights) had to change their names.

Classical Liberals / Libertarians: Right-wing academics and thinkers who favor pure laissez-faire capitalism adopted these terms to clarify that they are "liberal" regarding individual liberty and free markets, not modern welfare states.

---

The word liberal means free man.

And it's hard to just put American politics neatly into a box. It's more complex than just saying I'm conservative or I'm liberal.

quote:

---

Republicans didn’t remotely start abandoning neoliberalism until Trump, tbh.

---

Disagree.

The Republican base has been upset with the party representatives for some time for not holding true to supposed guiding principles (many of which are in this neoliberalism category).

That's what the Tea Party was about.

Trump started off as a symptom. I'd say that at this point he's become a cause, since a significant chunk of the base (we're about to find out how big a chunk) abandoned conservatism in favor of populism.

But this preceeded Trump. At the level of the politicians first, then the base.

quote:

---

Conservatives are pro conservation when the regulation is something tangible, and they are actually given environmental and economic pros and cons to consider. So much of the environmental movement isn’t about the environment at all, but rather government controlling where commerce can and cannot happen, and taxing businesses and real estate developers extra for the privilege of doing so.

---

Okay, this is an important point and has been plaguing conservatives for decades. Recently the left embarked on a gigantic industrial project - the retooling of our energy industries. But they were hoist on their own petard as every bumpkin within yodeling distance could stop the projects with lawsuits appealing to byzantine regulations that the left built to stop progress. Left wing polemicists are bemoaning the very regulations they put in place. This is why red states have been the sites of most of the green energy projects, and blue states like California can’t even build a choo-choo train.

quote:

---

Who speaks for conservatives definitively?

---

Me, I guess. But only if I have to.

quote:

---

Iran, Flock, and data centers aren't popular.

---

Trump didn't create Iran, flock cameras or data centers. These things all preceded Trump. They would be here if Harris was elected.

quote:

---

 I also wonder why the American right embraced neoliberalism (or the modern version of it) and not the American left? Obviously Democrats have embraced certain aspects of neoliberalism, but Republicans really seem to hang their hats on "free market solutions." I guess this is more explicitly sociological and I'm not really aware of all the historical nuances that led to Republicans planting their flag here

---

Conservatives IMHO should always be the more liberal political view since and American conservative seeks to conserve the intent of the founding documents and our founding documents were more liberal than many give them credit for.

As far as what we call "liberals" today, that in and of itself was a conscience rebranding of progressivism in the very early 1900's. The rebranding stuck. Progressives love to use the power of government to make changes. We see that from both the Democrats and modern Republicans today and is why our governments, on all levels, are so intrusive. Call modern liberals whatever you wish, they cannot, in truth, be liberal. To use government is to grow government and there is never liberty with big governments.

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property, and equality before the law.

A liberal is one who believes in liberalism....or that is what it used to mean. Today, it is not defined quite that way.

quote:

---

As far as what we call "liberals" today, that in and of itself was a conscience rebranding of progressivism in the very early 1900's. The rebranding stuck. Progressives love to use the power of government to make changes. We see that from both the Democrats and modern Republicans today and is why our governments, on all levels, are so intrusive. Call modern liberals whatever you wish, they cannot, in truth, be liberal. To use government is to grow government and there is never liberty with big governments.

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property, and equality before the law.

---

Perfect! I’ll add that Socialism is the taking away of individuals’ power and giving it to the State. It is, therefore, illiberal.