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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 1/22/23 at 9:58 pm to DabosDynasty
Posted on 1/22/23 at 9:58 pm to DabosDynasty
quote:
Can any of you tankers enlighten on the value of the uranium inserts vs the mentioned tungsten or any other substitute metal? Tungsten is the stronger metal.
Not a tanker just a dumb grunt but I know a tiny bit about material science. While what is going on with the DU mesh and what it is sandwiched between is probably very complex it is almost certain that its ductility and mass ratio makes it the better choice. DU can actually be made harder than W but it is a difficult and expensive process but that doesn't matter to the MIC. I am guessing the final product is a very dense mesh that is also ductile so when the kinetic penetrator hits it the mesh doesn't shatter but reduces the energy of the round and breaks it up into pieces before it breaks through the mesh. If I had to guess the ductility of DU vs W is what makes it the choice here. I could be 100% wrong however.
As an aside DU kinetic penetrators are downright scary. They are self-sharpening and freakin' pyrophoric. If God had a gun it would have DU bullets.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 9:59 pm to DabosDynasty
In 2000 when showing a plant to Chinese for sale in Geismar, one off the shelf small compressor which was used for propylene was heavily tarped and the records removed from the files due State Department direction. It was the type of ceramic involved as used in armor. Anyone could order the brand/model of compressor for several thousand dollars.
So some of the top secret stuff is widely used by businesses.
BTW, some single wall carbon nanotubes alloyed with plastics were used in the oil patch (deepwater high temp,high oressure valves) BEFORE the military or NASA used them.
So some of the top secret stuff is widely used by businesses.
BTW, some single wall carbon nanotubes alloyed with plastics were used in the oil patch (deepwater high temp,high oressure valves) BEFORE the military or NASA used them.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 10:08 pm to DabosDynasty
There's DU in the armor of Abrams and the service SABOTs as well. Most if the DU is in the front slope of the hull and some in the turret. 4 of the 7 side shirts have DU.
It's serious business. If a tank gets damaged to the point of seeing the DU mesh, people come and immediately read your rights about shutting the frick up. I've heard through the grapevine it acts somehow like a Stretch Armstrong doll. I'm not sure how exactly it works and I don't know. Im just a DAT.
It's serious business. If a tank gets damaged to the point of seeing the DU mesh, people come and immediately read your rights about shutting the frick up. I've heard through the grapevine it acts somehow like a Stretch Armstrong doll. I'm not sure how exactly it works and I don't know. Im just a DAT.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 10:11 pm to Lakeboy7
A lot of people seem to think the Ukrainian and Russian casualty numbers are similar and I suppose that makes sense at some gut level. What they are not factoring in is all the advantages Ukraine had in force multiplier systems. As a single example, indirect fire is the major killer in this war. Geolocation and smart munitions will "out-kill" rough guesses and dumb munitions by a large margin every time. Russia thus far has been able to put a lot of steel downrange but when it is hitting 200m past a Ukrainian position in the middle of a watermelon field it doesn't do much more than psychological harm.
It is amazing how much quality equipment can even the tables despite huge advantages in numbers.
It is amazing how much quality equipment can even the tables despite huge advantages in numbers.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 10:11 pm to El Segundo Guy
Like I've said a time or two, the Abrams is one of our aces in the hole and in my opinion, is not something we need to be lending to anyone.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 10:20 pm to El Segundo Guy
quote:
I've heard through the grapevine it acts somehow like a Stretch Armstrong doll.
This makes sense due to the ductility of DU. Tungsten and titanium would be far more likely to shatter upon impact. That being said the DU in that mesh has probably been significantly manipulated and probably doesn't act materially like your "garden variety" DU. Then again nothing acts normally when impacted with the kind of energy carried by a kinetic penetrator fired from a tank so anything we can imagine just based on the normal properties of the metals is potentially completely wrong in that scenario. One of the engineering experts in material science I use on occasion likes to say weird shite happened when you do weird shite to stuff like when you shoot a compressed oxygen vessel with a 30 caliber round and when you inspect the entrance hole it is a perfect circle 10 times the bullets diameter.
Posted on 1/22/23 at 10:23 pm to El Segundo Guy
Thanks for the responses guys 
Posted on 1/22/23 at 10:28 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Not that it really matters. The war starts anew in a few months when spring comes around.
It matters because so-called members of NATO want come off their arse to help a country that’s trying their best to fight off an invasion, that’s happening in their backyard.
Posted on 1/23/23 at 6:16 am to RLDSC FAN
British Defence Intelligence
UPDATE ON UKRAINE 23 January 2023
INTELLIGENCE UPDATE
General Valery Gerasimov, Russia's Chief of the General Staff and newly appointed commander in Ukraine, has likely started his tour with a drive to improve deployed troops' day-to-day discipline. Since he took command, officers have been attempting to clamp down on non-regulation uniform, travel in civilian vehicles, the use of mobile phones, and non-standard haircuts.
The measures have been met with sceptical feedback. However, some of the greatest derision has been reserved for attempts to improve the standard of troops' shaving. Officials in the Donetsk People's Republic, described the prioritisation a 'farce' that would 'hamper the process of destroying the enemy. Wagner proxy group owner, Yevgeny Prigozhin criticised military leadership, suggesting that, 'war is the time of the active and courageous, and not of the clean-shaven.
The Russian force continues to endure operational deadlock and heavy casualties; Gerasimov's prioritisation of largely minor regulations is likely to confirm the fears of his many sceptics in Russia. Along with Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, he is increasingly seen as out of touch and focused on presentation over substance.
UPDATE ON UKRAINE 23 January 2023
INTELLIGENCE UPDATE
General Valery Gerasimov, Russia's Chief of the General Staff and newly appointed commander in Ukraine, has likely started his tour with a drive to improve deployed troops' day-to-day discipline. Since he took command, officers have been attempting to clamp down on non-regulation uniform, travel in civilian vehicles, the use of mobile phones, and non-standard haircuts.
The measures have been met with sceptical feedback. However, some of the greatest derision has been reserved for attempts to improve the standard of troops' shaving. Officials in the Donetsk People's Republic, described the prioritisation a 'farce' that would 'hamper the process of destroying the enemy. Wagner proxy group owner, Yevgeny Prigozhin criticised military leadership, suggesting that, 'war is the time of the active and courageous, and not of the clean-shaven.
The Russian force continues to endure operational deadlock and heavy casualties; Gerasimov's prioritisation of largely minor regulations is likely to confirm the fears of his many sceptics in Russia. Along with Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, he is increasingly seen as out of touch and focused on presentation over substance.
Posted on 1/23/23 at 6:20 am to gizmothepug
Norway currently meeting to decide on their next package for Ukraine, including a decision on Leopards.
LINK
According to Wikipedia, Norway has 52 Leopards.
quote:
The extended foreign affairs and defense committee (DUUFK) has been summoned to a secret meeting in all haste. The topic is arms support to Ukraine and German-made tanks in Norwegian possession, Dagbladet learns.
20 Storting politicians sit on the extended committee.
The emergency call came late on Sunday evening.
The time, topic and place of the meeting are always secret when DUUFK meets to discuss the major issues in Norwegian foreign and defense policy.
But Dagbladet learns that it is Ukraine, arms support, tanks and the comments of the German foreign minister that are key words for the meeting on Monday.
Ukraine has repeatedly requested German-made Leopard 2 tanks, which the German government opposes.
But Germany has now opened the door for third countries to send such tanks to Ukraine, something they have previously refused to do. This was confirmed by German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock in an interview on Sunday.
LINK
According to Wikipedia, Norway has 52 Leopards.
Posted on 1/23/23 at 6:38 am to Obtuse1
Jan 22 ISW Update
quote:
ISW is publishing an abbreviated campaign update today, January 22. This report focuses on the Kremlin’s recent marginalization of the Wagner Group following the culmination of the drive on Bakhmut and its return to reliance on conventional forces on the frontlines and the regular Ministry of Defense (MoD) and General Staff apparatus. The report also analyzes the changing relationship between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Wagner financier Yevgeny Prigozhin and its implications.
Wagner financier Yevgeny Prigozhin’s star has begun to set after months of apparent rise following his failure to make good on promises of capturing Bakhmut with his own forces. Russian President Vladimir Putin had likely turned to Prigozhin and Prigozhin’s reported ally, Army General Sergey Surovikin, to continue efforts to gain ground and break the will of Ukraine and its Western backers to continue the war after the conventional Russian military had culminated and, indeed, suffered disastrous setbacks.[1] The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) and General Staff, headed by Sergey Shoigu and Army General Valeriy Gerasimov respectively, had turned their attention to mobilizing Russian reservists and conscripts and setting conditions for improved performance by the conventional Russian military, but they had little hope of achieving anything decisive in the Fall and early Winter of 2022
quote:
Putin appears to have decided to turn away from relying on Prigozhin and his irregular forces and to put his trust instead in Gerasimov, Shoigu, and the conventional Russian military once more. Putin began to re-centralize control of the war effort under the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) in early December.
quote:
Putin’s decision to focus and rely on conventional Russian forces is marginalizing the Wagner Group and the siloviki faction that nevertheless continues to contribute to Russian war efforts in Ukraine. The siloviki faction is a small group of Russian businessmen and leaders with meaningful power bases and parallel military companies and includes individuals such as Prigozhin. Putin’s resubordinating to Gerasimov the Commander of the Aerospace Forces, Surovikin, whose October 8 appointment received widespread support from the siloviki faction, reversed a months-long trend of Putin’s efforts to placate the siloviki.
Putin is also attempting to rebuild the Russian MoD’s authority and reputation, both of which had been badly damaged by failures in 2022 and heavily attacked by the siloviki faction for many months. Putin’s turnabout became most evident when he pointedly did not credit Prigozhin or his Wagner forces for the capture of Soledar during a federal TV interview on January 15.[8] The Russian MoD also originally did not recognize Wagner as a participant in the Battle for Soledar, only to vaguely acknowledge Wagner assault units in a follow-up announcement on January 13.[9] Prigozhin and his allies had been fighting to claim credit for gains around Bakhmut and the capture of Soledar for some time, making Putin’s decision to walk back Russian MoD’s acknowledgment of Wagner a major defeat for Prigozhin.[10]
Putin may have felt threatened by Prigozhin’s rise and tactless self-assertion. Putin began to reintroduce himself as an involved wartime leader in December, ostentatiously meeting with his commanders and appearing with troops.[11] Prigozhin did not take the hint, if hint it was, but instead redoubled his efforts to assert himself by advertising the superiority and successes of his own troops
quote:
Putin likely turned to Prigozhin’s irregular forces to get through the period following the Russian conventional military’s culmination after the reckless and costly push to seize Severodonetsk and Lysychansk. Wagner forces have fought in Putin’s invasion of Ukraine since the first days of the war and played important roles in offensive operations such as that to seize Popasna, Luhansk Oblast (40km east of Bakhmut) in April-May 2022.[15] Wagner forces assisted other Russian troops in the Battle of Severodonetsk, serving as the main assault forces alongside Rosgvardia elements in late June 2022
quote:
Russia’s pushes on Severodonetsk and Lysychansk, which followed the unsuccessful Russian drive on Kyiv and the bloody Battle for Mariupol, had consumed much of its offensive combat power in Donbas and southern Ukraine.[20] Russian forces paid dearly to seize the two remaining large cities in Luhansk Oblast and faced a significant troop shortage that prompted Putin to launch volunteer recruitment campaigns throughout the country.[21] Putin had likely allowed Prigozhin to expand his forces with prisoner recruits in an effort to mitigate these personnel shortages and maintain momentum on some select frontlines by unconventional means
quote:
Prigozhin likely imagined that his efforts in Ukraine would continue to lend him military and political power in Russia. Prigozhin’s command over the Bakhmut direction and proximity to Putin likely gave him a false sense that he could use the victory in Bakhmut against the backdrop of Russian MoD’s military failures as a bargaining tool for his own commercial objectives such as the legalization of Wagner mercenary activity in Russia, expanding his political power within the Kremlin, or even displacing the authority of Shoigu. Western officials revealed in October that Prigozhin had harshly criticized the Russian MoD in a private conversation with Putin, claiming that Russian conventional forces were entirely reliant on Wagner forces.
quote:
Prigozhin's recent apparent fall from grace and influence likely reflects the real limitations on his actual power. US and UK intelligence estimated that Prigozhin has approximately 50,000 fighters in Ukraine, of whom 40,000 are convicts and 10,000 contractors.[26] Prigozhin has been relentlessly throwing his fighters into bloody assault operations around Bakhmut at a high cost, while Putin has been conserving and training at least a portion of the men he mobilized into conventional Russian Army units.[27] Wagner Group is also likely relying on the Russian MoD’s logistical support and maintenance functions for its aviation and heavy military equipment
quote:
Putin had never fully given in to Prigozhin’s recommendations or demands throughout this transitional period and had likely always planned to put Prigozhin back into his place once the Russian conventional military improved enough to bear the burden of continuing the war. Putin had removed Lapin and appointed Surovikin—possibly on the advice of Prigozhin and his allies—but he did not grant most of Prigozhin’s desires. Prigozhin is still demanding that the Kremlin officially recognize the Wagner Group in Russia, even though Russian criminal law prohibits the operation of parallel military and mercenary formations.[30] Putin could have responded to numerous of Prigozhin’s requests and demands over many months and legalized Wagner’s operations in Russia, but he likely did not deem it necessary to weaken the Russian MoD and empower Prigozhin further to sustain a temporary force generation effort. Prigozhin had also called on the Russian State Duma and Prosecutor General’s office to fire and imprison St. Petersburg Governor Alexander Beglov for treason, claiming that Beglov had hindered Russia’s war efforts.
Posted on 1/23/23 at 6:40 am to StormyMcMan
quote:
Putin’s turn on Prigozhin has positive and negative implications for Russia’s military campaign in Ukraine. Putin is now marginalizing and distancing himself from a hard-to-control mercenary group composed predominantly of ill-disciplined convicts commanded in the most brutal manner. Prigozhin will likely continue to criticize the Russian MoD and the Kremlin and may even seek to turn the pro-war nationalist faction against Putin. But Prigozhin was already fueling the most extreme pro-war faction that had already been attacking the Russian MoD with hammer and tongs and had even begun to come after Putin himself
The marginalization of people like Prigozhin, who has had men executed with sledgehammers and hands out Wagner sledgehammers as gifts, is a good thing.[35] The return to prominence and influence of more professional military officers such as Gerasimov likely suggests a reduced likelihood that Putin will give in to the crazier demands of the far-right pro-war faction, possibly in turn further reducing the already-low likelihood of irrational Russian escalations. It can never be good to have people like Prigozhin near the center of power, so any indication that he is receding from power is positive
But the re-emergence of the professional Russian military is also concerning. Prigozhin could never have established a formidable and sustainable national military apparatus. As long as Putin favored Prigozhin’s and others’ irregular approaches to continuing the war Putin postponed the day that Russian could re-establish a powerful conventional military. His re-embrace of Gerasimov and regular order has likely put Russia back on course toward rebuilding its military. NATO would do well to take note of this development as a matter of its own future security, beyond anything it might portend for Ukraine.
quote:
Key inflections in ongoing military operations on January 22:
Russian State Duma Chairman Vyacheslav Volodin made uncredible threats of nuclear escalation as part of an ongoing information operation aimed at deterring the Western provision of further military aid to Ukraine.[36]
ISW continues to assess that Russia is very unlikely to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine and extraordinarily unlikely to use them against the West.
Russian milbloggers on January 22 continued to discuss the potential of a pending major Russian or Ukrainian offensive and speculated as to which areas present the highest priority targets.[37]
Russian forces continued limited counterattacks to regain lost positions along the Svatove-Kreminna line on January 22.[38] Russian sources claimed that Ukrainian forces struck an industrial facility in Kadiivka, Luhansk Oblast with HIMARS rockets.[39]
Russian forces continued offensive operations in the Bakhmut and the Donetsk City-Avdiivka areas.[40]
Russian sources claimed on January 22 that Russian forces continued offensive operations in two directions in Zaporizhia Oblast, with their main efforts focusing on Hulyaipole and Orikhiv.[41] Head of the Ukrainian Joint Press Center of the Tavrisk Direction Defense Forces Yevhen Yerin stated on January 22 that Russian forces are not conducting large-scale operations in the Zaporizhia direction.[42]
Russian occupation authorities continued commandeering civilian infrastructure in occupied territories at the expense of civilian health and safety on January 22.[43]
Posted on 1/23/23 at 9:39 am to DMAN1968
quote:
The most senior US general estimates that around 100,000 Russian and 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers have been killed or injured in the war in Ukraine. Gen Mark Milley, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, also suggested that around 40,000 civilians had died after being caught up in the conflict. BBC Nov. 2022
That was November which is before the mass human wave attacks started in the Bakhmut area.
Posted on 1/23/23 at 9:39 am to StormyMcMan
Interesting info in this article in this German newspaper. I had to paste the article into archive.ph and copy the text and feed it through Google Translate.
Man, NSA Director Jake Sullivan has been the guy in the US who has constantly been for slow-walking weapons. He has repeatedly held the US back from giving stuff to Ukraine. And now he's the guy reading the riot act to his German counterpart? That just shows badly Germany is screwing up right now.
quote:
Germany's allies in NATO have reacted with incomprehension or barely concealed anger to Chancellor Olaf Scholz's decision not to pledge Leopard tanks for Ukraine for the time being. The tone in the US government was particularly sharp, with Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin trying in vain on Thursday in Berlin and on Friday in Ramstein to obtain a commitment to supply Leopard-2.
quote:
According to information from the Süddeutsche Zeitung, the refusal from Berlin led to violent reactions in Washington. According to information from government circles, Secretary of Defense Austin described the course of his talks in Berlin in an internal report. A meeting with the Chancellor's Minister, Wolfgang Schmidt, was of particular importance. After Defense Minister Boris Pistorius had just taken office and the arms export decision was always made in the Chancellery and by Scholz himself, Schmidt is considered a key figure for the German position.
Lloyd Austin, who was staying longer than planned at the Chancellery, reportedly got into a war of words with Schmidt. The encounter was "tense".
quote:
According to SZ information, security adviser Jake Sullivan called Scholz's foreign policy adviser, Jens Plötner, with whom he actually has a friendly relationship. In the US administration, the protest is described as violent. The "Riot Act" was read out.
Man, NSA Director Jake Sullivan has been the guy in the US who has constantly been for slow-walking weapons. He has repeatedly held the US back from giving stuff to Ukraine. And now he's the guy reading the riot act to his German counterpart? That just shows badly Germany is screwing up right now.
Posted on 1/23/23 at 9:44 am to StormyMcMan
quote:
Putin appears to have decided to turn away from relying on Prigozhin and his irregular forces and to put his trust instead in Gerasimov, Shoigu, and the conventional Russian military once more. Putin began to re-centralize control of the war effort under the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) in early December.
This is because Prigozhin has now used up most of his horde of convicts and has little left to offer to Putin. It's why I don't think Bakhmut is going to fall anytime soon. If Prigozhin still had 10,000 convicts left that he could throw into the effort to take Bakhmut, then Putin wouldn't be marginalizing him right now.
Posted on 1/23/23 at 9:46 am to GOP_Tiger
Looks like the germans are flip flopping again on the Leopards
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1617481495555497985

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1617481495555497985
quote:
BREAKING:
The German government spokesperson denies the claims by Foreign Minister Baerbock who said Germany wouldn’t "stand in the way" of Poland sending its Leopards to ????
The spokesperson told Politico that it would have to be discussed in Germany's Federal Security Council.
This post was edited on 1/23/23 at 9:56 am
Posted on 1/23/23 at 9:51 am to Chromdome35
quote:
Looks like the germans are flip flopping again on the Leopards
Sounds to me like there are significant divisions inside various factions of the political establishment..
Posted on 1/23/23 at 10:09 am to Obtuse1
quote:
As a single example, indirect fire is the major killer in this war.
In this war probably 90-10 with the 10% being rifle fire. They bump in to each from time to time and the snipers get a few but most are blown up.
Posted on 1/23/23 at 10:10 am to El Segundo Guy
quote:
Like I've said a time or two, the Abrams is one of our aces in the hole and in my opinion, is not something we need to be lending to anyone.
There are over 400 M1A1s that were retired from the USMC less than 5 years ago. Atleast 225 of those tanks don’t have DU armor. They similar to the tanks that we have sold to the Egyptians, Iraqi’s, Australians, Saudi’s, and Poland. So why can’t we send those?
Posted on 1/23/23 at 10:14 am to Obtuse1
quote:
It is amazing how much quality equipment can even the tables despite huge advantages in numbers.
Especially when the other side has shite.
Do other branches use the term "force multiplier"? Just curious. And its fun to read disappointment in "only" getting Brads and Strykers, in this war those things (in addition to existing armor) will dominate the battlefield.
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