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Posted on 1/21/23 at 12:49 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
What I would say in response is that the US could've announced today that we will deliver 150 Abrams, but that the delivery won't take place until May.
I am 100% against sending Abrams ranks anywhere but fir our own tankers. I don't care how many we have "mothballed" somewhere. It is hands down the best landborne direct fire machine on this planet. It is one of our true aces in the hole.
I spent over 20 years on an Abrams and literally depended my life on it for more than a few deployments.
Posted on 1/21/23 at 12:59 am to CitizenK
quote:
To think that Ukraine doesn't have the capability to maintain such is just plain ignorance.
I guess I'm ignorant because I don't think that they have the logistics to maintain an Abrams every single day in a combat environment. From the CITV to the fire control systems to the daily maintenance it requires at the crew level to keep a 72 ton beast rolling at 40 mph and putting steel on steel at out to 3k km.
Posted on 1/21/23 at 1:03 am to El Segundo Guy
I was a Mike Golf (not meat gazer), Master Gunner for you legs. I know the fire control system and it's capabilities down to a t. I still know the lot numbers and CCFs (computer correction factor) for every sabot and heat round made, whether it be a DU service round or training round.
Posted on 1/21/23 at 2:41 am to El Segundo Guy
quote:
Master Gunner for you legs
I dunno what they taught you at Knox but just because you rolled around in a steel chariot didn't mean you weren't a leg, still a low-entry ground soldier. Jumping off the back of an M1 doesn't count.
You do have one thing right I don't know shite about armor except they rattle the ground when I am trying to sleep and I have to sleep between two HUMVEEs so they don't run over me.
Posted on 1/21/23 at 6:47 am to RLDSC FAN
British Defence Intelligence
INTELLIGENCE UPDATE
UPDATE ON UKRAINE 21 January 2023
In recent days, the heaviest fighting has focused in three sectors. In the northeast, near Kremina, Ukraine has likely made small gains and successfully defended against a Russian counter-attack.
Around the Donetsk Oblast, in Bakhmut sector, Russian and Wagner proxy forces have likely been reconstituting in the town of Soledar, after capturing it earlier in the week.
In the south, in Zaporizhzhia Oblast, both sides have massed significant forces, which have conducted artillery exchanges and skirmishes, but have avoided any large-scale offensive effort.
Overall, the conflict is in a state of deadlock. However, there is a realistic possibility of local Russian advances around Bakhmut.
INTELLIGENCE UPDATE
UPDATE ON UKRAINE 21 January 2023
In recent days, the heaviest fighting has focused in three sectors. In the northeast, near Kremina, Ukraine has likely made small gains and successfully defended against a Russian counter-attack.
Around the Donetsk Oblast, in Bakhmut sector, Russian and Wagner proxy forces have likely been reconstituting in the town of Soledar, after capturing it earlier in the week.
In the south, in Zaporizhzhia Oblast, both sides have massed significant forces, which have conducted artillery exchanges and skirmishes, but have avoided any large-scale offensive effort.
Overall, the conflict is in a state of deadlock. However, there is a realistic possibility of local Russian advances around Bakhmut.
This post was edited on 1/21/23 at 10:32 am
Posted on 1/21/23 at 7:43 am to Obtuse1
I just read that there is currently no true M1 maintenance facility in Europe. Poland has just started building its maintenance center. I wonder when it will be finished, because that might have something to do with the US decision to delay sending Abrams to Ukraine.
Edit: here's an informative thread from retired Gen. Mark Hertling, who is a huge supporter of Ukraine, but argues that we should focus on getting Leopards to Ukraine now. He makes some interesting points.
Edit: here's an informative thread from retired Gen. Mark Hertling, who is a huge supporter of Ukraine, but argues that we should focus on getting Leopards to Ukraine now. He makes some interesting points.
quote:
-The M1-series, in my view, is the best in the world.
-Training of tank crews/units is critical, and can't be hand-waved (if you do w/ an M1, you'll be ineffective while breaking lots of stuff).
-Everyone is an M1 expert, until they break it.
-There's a reason tankers are called "DATs" (dumb-arse-tankers). It's because they break things in their tanks & then rely on maintainers/master gunners/loggies to fix it.
-Older tanks break more often (the M1 was fielded in the 1980's)
-Having fired T-72s, Chieftains, Challengers, Leo IIs & Abrams, the M1 requires the most turret training.
-Same true for the engine. The pack "blows" when drivers aren't trained. A FUPP (the combined engine/trans) is expensive (about $1.5 million) & then must be replaced.
*Some* M1 repairs require part replacements (requiring many high tech spare parts to be in a PLL).
Other replacements require pulling things (like FUPPs, sights, etc) to a log center/depot w/ new one being sent forward.
It's a 500 mile supply line from Poland to the Donbas.
Having serviced 250 tanks in 1st Armored when I was ADC-S, you don't just "put parts on an DHL/C17 or a MI-17 and hop to the front lines."
...
-"if the Iraqi's, Saudi's, Egypt troops can use the M1, the UKR will have no issues."
Iraqis paid billions for M1s w/ a permanent GD maintenance contract & a 5-year training period.
Saudis bought M1A2s w/ a 7 year training program, with maintenance contract still in place.
This post was edited on 1/21/23 at 8:25 am
Posted on 1/21/23 at 10:18 am to GOP_Tiger
This story is astonishing. Perhaps we should cut new German defense minister Boris Pistorius a bit of slack; he really went into Ramstein not knowing how many functional Leopards Germany actually had, or how many could possibly be sent to Ukraine.
That's because his predecessor, who increasingly looks like a Russian agent, specifically ordered the German army NOT to do an inventory and readiness check on their Leopards.
LINK
That's because his predecessor, who increasingly looks like a Russian agent, specifically ordered the German army NOT to do an inventory and readiness check on their Leopards.
quote:
As for the possible reasons, the ministry says: Allegedly, Chancellor Olaf Scholz ( SPD ) should not be put under additional pressure in the question of possible main battle tank deliveries. The concern: If it had come out that the Bundeswehr was counting its operational tanks, that could have been interpreted as a willingness to deliver tanks. They allegedly wanted to avoid this impression, especially since the Chancellery is said to have not issued a corresponding formal inspection order to the Ministry of Defense by then, it is said.
A request from Business Insider on Friday evening left Christine Lambrecht unanswered for the time being. The new Defense Minister Boris Pistorius (SPD) said on Friday on the sidelines of the Ramstein summit that he had instructed an inventory to be taken on the same day. The announcement had caused astonishment, as the topic had been discussed for months.
CDU foreign affairs expert Roderich Kiesewetter was speechless that it was only the new Defense Minister who commissioned an inventory of the Leopard 1 and 2 available in the Bundeswehr and industrial stocks. "It is embarrassing and frightening that Germany apparently only remembered this almost a year after the beginning of the war."
LINK
Posted on 1/21/23 at 10:41 am to GOP_Tiger
Just goes to show you how non-serious Germany is regarding defense. She didn't even have a defense background. Her speeches or reports she gave before the bundestag were a joke. She did everything that she could to stall or derail any reforms. Not one cent of that 1 billion euros (which was entirely inadequate) that commie Scholz proposed has been spent.
I think she was the German equivalent to Kamala Harris. Dumb/incompetent/unqualified. She should have never been placed in that position by Scholz.
I think she was the German equivalent to Kamala Harris. Dumb/incompetent/unqualified. She should have never been placed in that position by Scholz.
This post was edited on 1/21/23 at 10:46 am
Posted on 1/21/23 at 10:48 am to GOP_Tiger
You’ve been the best, thanks for providing all the info you do!
Posted on 1/21/23 at 11:02 am to crookedicat
Agreed, there are several very good posters in the thread, I appreciate them all. I appreciate the skeptics as well as long as they look to have a serious discussion and not just shitpost.
Posted on 1/21/23 at 11:19 am to crookedicat
quote:
You’ve been the best, thanks for providing all the info you do!
You're very welcome. For me, posting is part of my trying to understand the war. The posts and responses of those here are great at helping me fill in the gaps in my own understanding.
Posted on 1/21/23 at 11:27 am to Chromdome35
quote:
Agreed, there are several very good posters in the thread, I appreciate them all. I appreciate the skeptics as well as long as they look to have a serious discussion and not just shitpost.
Sometimes things go off the rail, but this thread delivers good overall information, good technical information and good opinions on strategy, etc.
You tank guys are great. The map guys were great until this stalemate when maps were no longer needed. And we have a bunch here who bring it daily.
Thank you guys. And let’s fight to keep it on point.
Posted on 1/21/23 at 11:54 am to TBoy
Posted on 1/21/23 at 11:59 am to El Segundo Guy
quote:
I guess I'm ignorant because I don't think that they have the logistics to maintain an Abrams every single day in a combat environment. From the CITV to the fire control systems to the daily maintenance it requires at the crew level to keep a 72 ton beast rolling at 40 mph and putting steel on steel at out to 3k km.
I guess you think that the Ukrainians are keeping a 1000+ 40 year old Soviet tanks running by sticking their thumbs up their butts?
This post was edited on 1/22/23 at 10:08 am
Posted on 1/21/23 at 12:24 pm to Obtuse1
Video of interactive exhibit in Ukraine where you can sink a model of the Moskva. Someone's troll game is skrong.
Twitter video
Twitter video
Posted on 1/21/23 at 12:31 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Training of tank crews/units is critical, and can't be hand-waved (if you do w/ an M1, you'll be ineffective while breaking lots of stuff). -Everyone is an M1 expert, until they break it. -There's a reason tankers are called "DATs" (dumb-arse-tankers). It's because they break things in their tanks & then rely on maintainers/master gunners/loggies to fix it. -Older tanks break more often (the M1 was fielded in the 1980's) -Having fired T-72s, Chieftains, Challengers, Leo IIs & Abrams, the M1 requires the most turret training. -Same true for the engine. The pack "blows" when drivers aren't trained. A FUPP (the combined engine/trans) is expensive (about $1.5 million) & then must be replaced. *Some* M1 repairs require part replacements (requiring many high tech spare parts to be in a PLL).
According to wikipedia, Ukraine currently has around 100 T80Bs and T89BVs. These are the versions of the T80 that have a gas turbine engine. Ukraine also has to limit the use of these tanks because they are running out of space parts for them because they were made in factories in Russia and the Ukrainian made T80s have diesel engines. According to my friend who is in charge of a tank regiment in Ukraine and reads this thread when he gets the chance, if the USA were to send M1s to Ukraine then the crews from the T80s and the maintenance people who maintain them would be the first to transition over to the M1s. Yes it would take some adjustments and training to learn the Abrams but the people who are doing the learning are all professional soldiers who have almost a years worth of combat experience and every single one of them have more combat hours of experience then Darth, El Segundo, and any other tanker here combined and against a more advanced enemy than the posters here. They can learn the Abrams in less than 3 months time and be ready to integrate them into the new tank brigades they are forming that only outfitted with western equipment and be ready for combat by the end of the spring Rasputitsia. The logistics is an issue but if the Patriot missiles and other western SAMs can reduce the attacks on the electric infrastructure which will allow them to use their electric locomotives more consistently they can find a solution to the logistics problem. As far as having a maintenance center goes they already have maintenance centers up and running for their tanks and they have plenty of places to convert for more if needed. None of the obstacles listed in this thread are insurmountable and they can be quickly overcome if the west has the will to go all in. The Ukrainians are grateful for the aid but when it comes to tanks and fighter jets they are frustrated because it feels like the west is half assing it and debating while the Ukrainians are dying and having their country destroyed.
Posted on 1/21/23 at 12:32 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Voice of America: Reznikov ‘very satisfied’ over Ramstein summit.
Some military aid was announced behind closed doors at the Ramstein summit held on Jan. 20, an outcome Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov called “very inspiring” in comments to the Voice of America on Jan. 21.
Two days before Ramstein, I said that anything less than public pledges of a total of 150 Leopards would mean that Ramstein would be disappointing.
And the fact that this did not happen WAS disappointing, but there are a couple of things that have made me more optimistic:
1) The new "coalition of the willing" AKA the signers of the Tallinn Statement
It's very impressive that the UK, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Denmark, and the Netherlands got together before Ramstein, issued what amounts to a pledge to do whatever it takes for Ukraine to win, gave sacrificially, and urged others to do the same.
Estonia gave over 1% of its GDP, which would be the equivalent of the US giving another $229 billion, instead of another $2.5 billion. Denmark gave Ukraine its 19 Caesar SPGs, which is quite literally the entire Danish artillery. (Incidentally, that is a real shot at France, which makes the Caesars, but has only given 18 of them to Ukraine.)
These nations are collectively all-in. They are done fooling around. They are no longer interested in the excuses of France, Germany, Italy, and Spain as to why more aid cannot be given.
This was truly illustrated in two specific statements:
- The UK said that if the US is not going to give Ukraine ATACMS, they have long-range weapons that they will give.
- The Dutch specifically said that they were open-minded about giving F-16s to Ukraine.
The paradigm has changed.
2) The decision to send Leopards will come soon.
It now appears that the new German defense minister, Boris Pistorius, was completely unable to promise any specific number of Leopards, due to the absurd order of his predecessor, Christine Lambrecht. It was announced that Ukrainians will start training on Leopards. The fact that Poland is not screaming in fury right now indicates that Pistorius privately promised that Germany will send Leopards very soon, and that other nations (such as Spain) promised to send a lot of them. I cannot imagine that Reznikov would in any way be "very satisfied" unless he got pledges for more than 150 Leopards.
Posted on 1/21/23 at 12:51 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
This story is astonishing. Perhaps we should cut new German defense minister Boris Pistorius a bit of slack; he really went into Ramstein not knowing how many functional Leopards Germany actually had, or how many could possibly be sent to Ukraine.
I’m ok with cutting Pistorious slack because he had only been on the job for 3 days prior to Ramstein. However I am not ok with cutting Germany any slack. They have been undercutting NATOs security and weakening NATO from within for decades. Germany has led the way with the EU’s energy policy that led it to being addicted to Russian O&G, open borders and encouraging mass migration which has led to internal strife in Europe, and forcing other EU nations to choose between meeting the 2% defense spending minimum or spending money on one of the many EU social mandates that Germany forced on the EU. Germany was also the first to criticize and condemn countries like Poland that chose to spend money on defense instead of the EU mandated social programs.
quote:
That's because his predecessor, who increasingly looks like a Russian agent, specifically ordered the German army NOT to do an inventory and readiness check on their Leopards.
She is not the only German or European bueracrat who is compromised by Russia.
Posted on 1/21/23 at 12:56 pm to WeeWee
SIAP NOTE: this is apparently and exaggeration of what was actually said as noted by GOP Tiger
This post was edited on 1/21/23 at 1:25 pm
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