doubleb

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Maybe current leadership thinks it's a good deal and that Ukraine wont get one as good in the future?

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And maybe …..

Do you believe we should have provided 150 billion dollars in aid only to have Ukraine relinquish territory that they currently possess, have them change to a Russian controlled government and not get anything to secure their new borders?

Trump would be a fool to agree to any of that.

Florida has the best set up for visitors, if at least they did. Then Ole Miss.

Georgia and Bama were terrible.

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We have done something

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We did a lot.

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People wanting something in the past done differently can be noted but is irrelevant ultimately.

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Correct

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I think Europe should step up

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According to numerous reports Europe has.

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we should focus on things important to us going forward,

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We should always do that.

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we have already given plenty to Ukraine.

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We have and it would be stupid to fritter away all we’ve done by selling out Ukraine.

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We have honored our commitment to Ukraine, and then some. The narrative that we haven't is honestly insulting to the US imo.

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There have been plenty of people on this board that recommended we do nothing. That opinion had been prevalent here and in these war threads.

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Also can =/= should. And I'm not sure we actually can... Not because we don't have the resources, but I'm not sure we have the bandwidth. It takes our inept government so long to do anything that isn't pro-Israel that we actually do need to pick and choose what is worth that bandwidth and what isn't.

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P
We certainly could have done better, but considering the inefficiencies in government and Joe Biden things didn’t go smoothly.

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I think this issue is absolutely worth Europe's. Not as sure about ours.

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It’s hard enough to get our government to act swiftly and efficiently, it’s even harder to get all the nations in Europe in sync, but you are tight Europe certainly should be more sgreddive and unified in protecting Ukraine.

Are they finally coming together and are they bringing more to the arena? I think so,.

No Jimmy Superfly Snuka, Sgt. Slaughter, or the Iron Shiek no care.

Really good link.

I wonder what would have ensued if Stonewall Jackson would have launched his attack as planned?

Reports about the fall of Kupyansk are false. Ukraine counterattacks have been successful.

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Key Takeaways
Ukrainian forces recently liberated territory including part of the city of Kupyansk in a tactical counterattack in the Kupyansk direction.
This Ukrainian counterattack demonstrates that Ukrainian forces remain capable of defending and counterattacking against significant Russian offensive efforts, contrary to the claims of Russian President Vladimir Putin that the Ukrainian lines are collapsing.
The contours of the Ukrainian counterproposal to the most recent US peace proposal are emerging, but details of this counterproposal remain unclear.
The Kremlin explicitly rejected Ukraine’s proposals for a ceasefire and referendum. The Kremlin rejected the Ukrainian offer to establish a demilitarized zone.
The European Union (EU) agreed on December 12 to indefinitely freeze 210 billion euros (roughly $247 billion) in Russian assets to provide Ukraine with a reparations loan of up to 165 billion euros (roughly $194 billion). Ukrainian forces recently advanced near Kupyansk and Oleksandrivka. Russian forces recently advanced in the Kostyantynivka-Druzhkivka tactical area and near Hulyaipole.

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ISWanalysis

I believe we are a great country, an Arsenal for democracy,

We can protect our borders and honor our commitments that we’ve made to other countries. It’s not an either or.

Now I do believe that job one should be to protect our borders and our citizens.

About 10 weeks ago, the president of the US.

quote]U.S. President Donald Trump meets with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy during the 80th United Nations General Assembly, in New York City, New York, U.S., Sept. 23, 2025. Alexander Drago | Reuters

President Donald Trump said Tuesday afternoon that he thinks Ukraine, with help from the European Union, could win back its territory from Russia and return the country to its original borders. Trump had previously suggested numerous times that giving up some land would be a key component of resolving Ukraine’s war with Russia. “After getting to know and fully understand the Ukraine/Russia Military and Economic situation and, after seeing the Economic trouble it is causing Russia, I think Ukraine, with the support of the European Union, is in a position to fight and WIN all of Ukraine back in its original form,” Trump said in a lengthy post on Truth Social.[/quote]

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Let's see .... on the one hand the POTUS makes a claim. On the other, a fricking Major in the army makes a claim. RFK and the idiot journalist author weigh those equally.

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Uh, wait a few more months and Trump might flip flop back.

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The threat level for personal attacks in this thread has been moved to DefCon 4 with higher stages of DefCon anticipated as evening approaches.

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That’s why I skipped Whataburger today and hit Po-boy Express.

I just phoned a friend.
Russia rejects the peace plan. No surprise. Most objective observers knew they would.
Siversk still being contested and the Ukrainians aren’t collapsing.

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Key Takeaways
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov effectively rejected seven points of the US-proposed 28-point peace plan on December 11, including the original plan’s points on territorial swaps based on the line of contact and the provision of reliable security guarantees for Ukraine.
Lavrov’s December 11 statements indicate that the Kremlin is unwilling to accept the original 28-point peace plan but that Russia will instead demand further modifications should Ukraine agree to it.
Lavrov’s effective rejection of key elements of the 28-point peace plan is consistent with Russian President Vladimir Putin’s November 27 statement that the 28-point plan could be the basis for future negotiations, but not a final agreement in itself.
Senior Kremlin officials, including Putin, have similarly rejected key points of the 28-point plan in recent weeks.
The Kremlin claimed that Russian forces seized Siversk as part of the Kremlin’s intensified cognitive warfare effort that seeks to portray Ukraine’s frontline as on the verge of collapse, and Russian battlefield victory as inevitable. Neither is true, and the Russian seizure of Siversk is unconfirmed as of December 11.
The Kremlin is attempting to portray the claimed fall of Siversk as the start of the battle for Slovyansk – a battle the Kremlin has not set conditions on the ground to begin.
Putin’s December 11 meeting is part of a pattern of senior Russian officials aggrandizing claimed battlefield victories in the past several weeks to create the false perception that the frontlines are collapsing to push the West and Ukraine to capitulate to Russia’s demands. ISW continues to assess that the frontline in Ukraine is not facing imminent collapse. Russian forces are only making tactical gains across most of the theater.
Ukrainian forces struck an oil platform in the Caspian Sea for the first time and struck other Russian oil and defense industrial infrastructure on the night of December 10 to 11.
Ukrainian forces recently advanced near Pokrovsk. Russian forces recently advanced near Siversk.

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ISWlengthly report.