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Message
re: House of the Dragon S1E7: “Driftmark”--Official Thread
Posted on 10/4/22 at 12:49 pm to SoDakHawk
Posted on 10/4/22 at 12:49 pm to SoDakHawk
quote:
And a lot of people here saying Alicent could have ended it by accepting the marriage pact. Nope. There would still be houses pushing for her kids to be on the throne because they would not accept a Queen ruling and they would not accept her bastard kids getting the throne.
Nah, you are just making up excuses to justify Alicent's stupid behavior. An argument she herself explicitly did not make in justifying turning it down. She made it very clear her motive was simple: I want to make Rhaenyra suffer.
The king made his declaration, that is law.
The kids are still Targaryen's, that is fact.
And had the most powerful woman from the Hightower's formed a marriage pact with Rhaenyra to guarantee a seat on the throne for her children and her children's children, there is literally nothing that family could do to oppose it, and no evidence they would.
1
Posted on 10/4/22 at 12:55 pm to LB84
quote:
How did he manipulate the King? Just by placing his daughter around him? That's not manipulation. The King choose to marry her.
What show have you been watching? He is the little finger for this show. He pimped his own daughter out to the with the plan to have them marry for his on house. In the book he did the same thing with her when she was only 13 to the previous king but he did before the proposal could be made. Every move he did as the Hand was to position his family and use his leverage of the position with the King to manipulate decisions.
quote:
Otto didn't make up any lies about Rhaneyra.
Again what show are you watching because Otto said she had sex with Daemon hence why Daemon was once again exiled. He had no clue she came back and actually slept with Cole. But his little spider/spy saw Daemon leave the brothel and assumed they had sex, which they did not, and ran to Otto. Even when Alicent was questioning Cole about it she was not accusing Cole but wanting to know if he saw anything. Cole as the dumb arse he is confessed to something no one knew or was thinking.
This post was edited on 10/4/22 at 1:02 pm
Posted on 10/4/22 at 1:01 pm to theGarnetWay
quote:
Alicent bore Visyers’ 2 sons who would inherently be seen as having a better and more direct claim to the throne and other houses (including her own) were always going to pressure or force her (or her sons later in life) into making the challenge.
This is true in regards to their claim. Visersy's decision to make Rhaenyra the heir to the thrown was done to protect his legacy. I believe he felt after the death of his wife he would never have the opportunity to have children and did not want the Queen that never was or his brother to wear the crown. So he quickly made the rash decision to give it to Rhaenyra who I truly believed never wanted it.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 1:03 pm to TideWarrior
quote:
Again what show are you watching because Otto said she had sex with Daemon hence why Daemon was once again exiled. He had no clue she came back and actually slept with Cole. But his little spider/spy saw Daemon leave the brothel and assumed they had sex, which they did not, and ran to Otto. Even when Alicent was questioning Cole about it she was not accusing Cole but wanting to know if he saw anything. Cole as the dumb arse he is confessed to something no one knew or was thinking.
In the show thread nobody had any idea whether they had sex or not based on the episode. It certainly seemed like they might have. Daemon implied they did. We know now they didn't.
As portrayed I'm not sure how you can say Otto lied.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 1:11 pm to Bronc
quote:
The king made his declaration, that is law.
The kids are still Targaryen's, that is fact.
Once the King is dead his word doesn't mean crap. Again, precedent had been set already with Rhaenys getting passed over. It is Targ custom that no woman can rule.
Those kids are not Targaryen, they are bastards. They would be known as Waters since they were born in KL. Bastards cannot inherit lands or titles and have no claims or privileges.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 1:28 pm to SoDakHawk
quote:
Once the King is dead his word doesn't mean crap.
You literally just tried to make an argument that the king's word sets precedent, in the same sentence no less. Which is it???
quote:
Those kids are not Targaryen, they are bastards
I don't know if you don't know how genetics works or not, but they are 50% Targaryen, same as if they were birthed with a Hightower or a Valeryon. And yes, if you are familiar or not, bastards can and do have perceived rightful claims to the throne. Happens several times in GRRM's history.
You are basically just taking random shots to come up with post hoc rationalizations on behalf of Alicent. When we already have established her motives, cause she frigging told us lol!! And it has everything to do with pettiness and vindictiveness born out of jealousy. Not this noble pursuit you are projecting onto her
Posted on 10/4/22 at 1:39 pm to SoDakHawk
quote:
Again, precedent had been set already with Rhaenys getting passed over. It is Targ custom that no woman can rule.
No it isn't. Rhaenys getting outvoted does not mean it is now precedent. quote:
Those kids are not Targaryen, they are bastards. They would be known as Waters since they were born in KL. Bastards cannot inherit lands or titles and have no claims or privileges.
They may be genetically bastards, but officially they are Velaryon. Same situation as Joffrey except here the kids are still of the royal bloodline even as bastards so its an even better claim.
This post was edited on 10/4/22 at 1:40 pm
Posted on 10/4/22 at 1:48 pm to SoDakHawk
about alicents kids:
Aegon - village drunk
Aemond - giant dragon
daughter - complete hodor?
Aegon - village drunk
Aemond - giant dragon
daughter - complete hodor?
Posted on 10/4/22 at 2:06 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
In the show thread nobody had any idea whether they had sex or not based on the episode. It certainly seemed like they might have. Daemon implied they did. We know now they didn't.
As portrayed I'm not sure how you can say Otto lied.
At a minimum he spread rumors about Rhaenyra that he had no proof of.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 2:08 pm to SoDakHawk
quote:
Once the King is dead his word doesn't mean crap. Again, precedent had been set already with Rhaenys getting passed over. It is Targ custom that no woman can rule.
Those kids are not Targaryen, they are bastards. They would be known as Waters since they were born in KL. Bastards cannot inherit lands or titles and have no claims or privileges.
There is precedent of bastards being legitimized by kings and being accepted even after the king's death, see the entire house of Baratheon.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 2:44 pm to Epic Cajun
(no message)
Posted on 10/4/22 at 2:47 pm to Epic Cajun
Do you think this King will legitimize them? Doing so would mean he'd have to admit they are bastards. Instead he clings to the lie.
The whole point is that we're all arguing about it. It's obviously a messy situation and is going to end up in war.
The whole point is that we're all arguing about it. It's obviously a messy situation and is going to end up in war.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 3:05 pm to SoDakHawk
quote:
Alicent is in a game if win or die. Otto knew that from the start. He put Alicent in that position. I don't blame anyone who hates Otto but Alicent is just playing the cards she's been dealt so that her and her kids don't end up dead.
Eh. I mean I blamed Otto initially by basically forcing her to wed and bed this decrepit king and then putting the doubt in her mind about her security around King's Landing once the king dies but even if Otto hadn't told her that little bit right before he left I still think she would have shown her vindictive side.
She's acting on two impulses: fear and jealousy. Fear that her and her children will be killed and jealousy of her former BFF for not succumbing to the same pressure that she did and not committing to her "duty" like she did. She's been manipulated from the start and ultimately realized it and became embittered by it. The fear is mostly her father's doing but the jealousy is on her and mostly her driving force now. Sure, she wants to see her kids be happy and live but she cares way more about sticking it to Rhaenyra than she does almost anything else.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 3:16 pm to WicKed WayZ
quote:
I mean I blamed Otto initially by basically forcing her to wed and bed this decrepit king
To be fair to Otto, he wasn't decrepit at the time. He was dealing with some health things, but he was a mostly able-bodied man. Also, high born ladies marry for duty all the time. The daughter of the second son of Hightower could do a lot worse.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 3:19 pm to SoDakHawk
By the king accepting them, aren’t they legitimate in a sense?
Anyway, what moral ground do the greens stand on if/when Rhaenyra and Daemon have children together?
It all comes down to a power grab by the greens, they are attempting to usurp the throne from the rightful heirs.
ETA: I feel like people are trying to draw a parallel to Cersei’s kids, but this is a different situation as these kids are the rightful heir’s children and are Targaryens, whereas Cersei’s bastard children were not of the lineage of the throne. It was the Lannisters usurping the throne in a sense. With Rhaenyra’s kids the bloodline stil stays pure in the sense that her children are still Targaryens.
Anyway, what moral ground do the greens stand on if/when Rhaenyra and Daemon have children together?
It all comes down to a power grab by the greens, they are attempting to usurp the throne from the rightful heirs.
ETA: I feel like people are trying to draw a parallel to Cersei’s kids, but this is a different situation as these kids are the rightful heir’s children and are Targaryens, whereas Cersei’s bastard children were not of the lineage of the throne. It was the Lannisters usurping the throne in a sense. With Rhaenyra’s kids the bloodline stil stays pure in the sense that her children are still Targaryens.
This post was edited on 10/4/22 at 3:35 pm
Posted on 10/4/22 at 3:26 pm to Epic Cajun
quote:
By the king accepting them, aren’t they legitimate in a sense?
Anyway, what moral ground do the greens stand on if/when Rhaenyra and Daemon have children together?
There's a big problem there, too. Let's say they had decided to admit to it and legitimize the bastards. You could potentially lose the Velaryons over this. I guess that's a dicey situation with Daemon and his daughters, but it would be a huge embarassment to House Velaryon. Also, and this is very small potatoes but I wanted to think of all the consequences, the kids would now be heirs to Harrenhal. That would take the seat from Larys. I guess Larys was on the greens anyway, but it would still be a result.
Posted on 10/4/22 at 3:31 pm to DestrehanTiger
quote:
You could potentially lose the Velaryons over this
This was addressed point blank in the last episode.
The Sea Snake doesnt give a shite. Names, not blood are etched into history.
This post was edited on 10/4/22 at 3:36 pm
Posted on 10/4/22 at 3:40 pm to Bronc
quote:
The Sea Snake doesnt give a shite. Names, not blood are etched into history.
Yeah, and if they admit the kids are bastard sons of Harwin Strong, then they don't have the Velaryon name. They would be either Targaryens, Strongs, or Waters. The whole point of this hypothetical is Viserys and Rhaenyra admit to the parentage of the children and legitimize them anyway. You would need to admit to the bastardry if you want to legitimize. So, your argument would actually be one for Corlys getting furious over this. He would have no heirs other than his gay son unless his granddaughters did the opposite of his agreement with Rhaenyra. They would be born Targaryens but take the name Velaryon when taking Driftmark.
This post was edited on 10/4/22 at 3:43 pm
Posted on 10/4/22 at 4:12 pm to DestrehanTiger
As I said earlier, the king is de facto legitimizing them by accepting them as who they are stated to be by Rhaenyra. They are Targaryens regardless, I don’t see what the issue is. It would be one thing if we were talking about a Robert and Cersei Baratheon situation, but this is completely different.
ETA: the Hightowers created this self-fulfilling prophecy of the civil war. They were supposedly scared of being killed, so their solution was to start a war, with literally zero evidence that Rhaenyra was a threat to them
They could've 100% backed Rhaenyra and squashed any sort of rebellion that would've occurred if other lords balked at having a female on the throne. Who is going to stand against the Targaryens, Velaryons, and Hightowers? They used a lame excuse that no one would accept Rhaenyra to start all of this shite, when in reality, it was the Hightowers that wouldn't accept Rhaenyra.
ETA: the Hightowers created this self-fulfilling prophecy of the civil war. They were supposedly scared of being killed, so their solution was to start a war, with literally zero evidence that Rhaenyra was a threat to them
They could've 100% backed Rhaenyra and squashed any sort of rebellion that would've occurred if other lords balked at having a female on the throne. Who is going to stand against the Targaryens, Velaryons, and Hightowers? They used a lame excuse that no one would accept Rhaenyra to start all of this shite, when in reality, it was the Hightowers that wouldn't accept Rhaenyra.
This post was edited on 10/4/22 at 4:22 pm
Posted on 10/4/22 at 4:15 pm to DestrehanTiger
quote:
Let's say they had decided to admit to it and legitimize the bastards.
They aren’t going to admit it
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