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re: Game of Thrones S8E5 "The Bells" is officially the worst reviewed GOT episode yet
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:36 pm to JPLSU1981
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:36 pm to JPLSU1981
quote:
My belief is one of the main moral points of the show is...there are no good people, there are no bad people, there are just people. People make choices for their own reasons that make sense in their own mind and those choices affect others, sometimes in good ways and sometimes in bad ways.
I think that's true, but the intricacy of how these characters view their choices was what made the show so great. In this instance, we were given the pieces of the picture, but not the mechanism to really make it whole.
It's like others, and I myself, have said. This time they went from 0 to 100 really quickly.
1
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:37 pm to RB10
Again, you just ignore EVERYTHING people are saying in support of their argument to make a the point that you don’t know what’s going on, but you don’t like it.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:38 pm to JPLSU1981
quote:
Cersai... all she ever cared about was herself and her children and her lover. We look at Cersai as the evil villain, but Is there really anything wrong with this and her mindset?
That's not true. She was hellbent on destroying anyone who threatened the Lannister name. That may stem from "protecting" her children, but it goes much deeper than just a mother's love. Jaime said it best, she's hateful.
Cersei was a fantastic character that we got to a deep dive into the full breadth of.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 8:43 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:38 pm to LUS Tiger in FL
Watching this again right now. On first watch we all viewed as Dany being one of the "good guys" so when she turned people were upset. Watch it again from the other perspective. She has basically said from the beginning of the entire episode that she was going to burn KL to the ground, and she laid out her reasons for doing so. The entire first part was spent pleading with her to not go through with what she had already decided to do. Jon, when pressed with it by Varys, even said it was her decision to burn KL because she was the Queen and he is loyal to the Queen. So when Jon turns on her next episode for burning KL, he really has himself to blame because he knew it would happen and he let it happen.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:39 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
Again, you just ignore EVERYTHING people are saying in support of their argument to make a the point that you don’t know what’s going on, but you don’t like it.
I'm literally sitting here taking in other people's opinions. You're just butthurt because yours doesn't make sense.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:42 pm to RB10
100% agree with you that they went from sane Dany to mad Dany way too quick.
That said, I was pleased to have the Jon breakup as at least a little reason in my mind for her to finally lose her shite.
I would have preferred many scenes in the past with Varys wholeheartedly disagreeing with her decisions to kind of set the stage for his change of heart.
That said, I was pleased to have the Jon breakup as at least a little reason in my mind for her to finally lose her shite.
I would have preferred many scenes in the past with Varys wholeheartedly disagreeing with her decisions to kind of set the stage for his change of heart.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:44 pm to weagle99
quote:
Jon really hasn’t done jack shite this season.
I'm willing to bet thats going to change this weekend
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:44 pm to RB10
quote:Yet, 200,000ish people (maybe more), most of whom were civilians, died when we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We were going drop more until they surrendered, and we only gave 3 days between the last set of bombs.
this. If razing a city doesn't put you into the evil category, I don't know what does. If it wasn't the most atrocious thing done on the entire show, it's 2nd only to Cersei nuking a church and an entire city district with it.
And while they likely ended a war sooner, and fewer soldiers died, we still intentionally killed hundreds of thousands of civilians and were willing to kill many more to reach that end. And while the official “war” may have ended, but Dany’s motivations (whether logical or not) was to essentially end any future wars before the begin as well.
So if murder hundreds of thousands to ensure peace, even if that’s also if not primarily, to ensure her power, then it’s hard to argue our nuking of hundreds of thousands to ensure peace wasn’t evil too—or at least as close to it as possible.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 8:48 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:45 pm to JPLSU1981
quote:
100% agree with you that they went from sane Dany to mad Dany way too quick.
This is all I've ever said.
quote:
That said, I was pleased to have the Jon breakup as at least a little reason in my mind for her to finally lose her shite.
I do agree that it had to be a catalyst.
quote:
I would have preferred many scenes in the past with Varys wholeheartedly disagreeing with her decisions to kind of set the stage for his change of heart.
It wouldn't have taken much either. Just a little bit more depth to the developing story. It's disappointing we didn't get it.
Careful now, Sammy is going to be really upset that you don't think it was done perfectly.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:51 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
Again, you just ignore EVERYTHING people are saying in support of their argument to make a the point that you don’t know what’s going on
He clearly knows what happened and why. He seems to be after why a character you've followed from the start, that was presented as a flawed heroic figure, turns into a monster who would burn hundreds of thousands of people and there's no feelings invoked.
There are people saying how it was totally justified by what the show presented and those that are upset it wasn't fleshed out better, but no one seems to start they felt anything.
Oberyn v The Mountain is so memorable because you have emotional investment in the outcome. The Red Wedding for the shock, horror, and sadness losing those people invoked. Most we're celebrating when Joeffery bit it.
So why is it that a main character of the entire series has this turn and it's an argument of if the show set it up or not?
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:58 pm to RB10
quote:
I was on board until this. If razing a city doesn't put you into the evil category, I don't know what does. If it wasn't the most atrocious thing done on the entire show, it's 2nd only to Cersei nuking a church and an entire city district with it.
Plus, she just deprived herself of all the revenues that could be generated by the people and businesses in the city if she had left it in working order. She did not go Mad Queen so much as she went Stupid Queen.
But who knows, maybe she spared the more affluent parts of the city and mostly torched shite holes Flea Bottom and Gin Alley. Hopefully she kept the street of steel so the Unsullied can get some decent armor.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 8:59 pm to Duke
quote:
He clearly knows what happened and why. He seems to be after why a character you've followed from the start, that was presented as a flawed heroic figure, turns into a monster who would burn hundreds of thousands of people and there's no feelings invoked.
Sammy is too busy screaming at his keyboard to wrap his head around what I was actually debating.
quote:
There are people saying how it was totally justified by what the show presented and those that are upset it wasn't fleshed out better, but no one seems to start they felt anything.
This. It's just a difference of opinion. I don't understand why it bothers him so much that everyone isn't sharing his exact train of thought.
quote:
Oberyn v The Mountain is so memorable because you have emotional investment in the outcome. The Red Wedding for the shock, horror, and sadness losing those people invoked. Most we're celebrating when Joeffery bit it.
So why is it that a main character of the entire series has this turn and it's an argument of if the show set it up or not?
No other major character had their arc completed in a rushed fashion. We may not have liked the outcome, but it was methodically delivered. The same cannot be said for Dany. Some people are bothered by this while others aren't. To each their own.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 9:01 pm to Methuselah
quote:
But who knows, maybe she spared the more affluent parts of the city and mostly torched shite holes Flea Bottom and Gin Alley. Hopefully she kept the street of steel so the Unsullied can get some decent armor.
That would be an interesting development. It would take a level of planning and sanity that doesn't really jive with what they delivered though.
That's definitely an interesting take that would flip the script, again.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 9:03 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 9:12 pm to Duke
quote:But this is dissonance. Game of Thrones was lauded for deviating from the classic Good v. Evil and the archetype characters that nearly fit into those box.
that was presented as a flawed heroic figure, turns into a monster who would burn hundreds of thousands of people and there's no feelings invoked.
But then when the stakes are at its highest, and we’re at its climax, and the finality is near, people are sudden they’re upset because they had actually wanted those archetypes all along, not the moral complexities.
And they increase the cognitive dissonance by first unnecessarily putting a character in the “good hero” box because she did some great things and then unnecessarily putting her in the “evil villain” box when she does some really bad things.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 9:13 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 9:16 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
But then when the stakes are at its highest, and we’re at its climax, and the finality is near, people are sudden they’re upset because they had actually wanted those archetypes all along, not the moral complexities.
Wanting to understand why Dany has gone full fledged murder queen is wanting the moral complexities, and more importantly, to see those moral complexities rip at her a little bit before revealing the outcome.
What we don't want is to be told, "eh, she's just evil now" which is the "good/evil box" that you referenced.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 9:21 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 9:33 pm to RB10
quote:My problem is that EVERYONE who didn’t like her actions, has eventual come to the same rational of why they didn’t like “I knew it was possible,” conveniently after people laid out all its signs, but “it was poor character development,” which conveniently minimizes those signs.
No other major character had their arc completed in a rushed fashion.
I’m sure some truly came to that reasoning all on their own; however, I read enough posts on Reddit, Twitter, and here to know they rarely do people truly come to the same exact rationalization all on their own and rarely do enough people actually care about a particular aspect of entertainment to have to same basis for their dislike of it, let alone something that requires a bit deeper analysis like character development.
So I suspect that some portion, maybe a large portion, resorting to this criticism, just didn’t want and/or expect what happened to have happened.
But just like there were all of the Cavs fans who were excited to watch the decision (packing bars, throwing watching parties) when they wanted and believed Lebron was going stay with the Cavs. And then when they became outraged because they didn’t get what they wanted and expected, instead of admitting their outrage was because their own selfish (like all fans are selfish) desires weren’t fulfilled, they all resorted to the same rationalization: it wasn’t what happened, but how it happened.
So they wanted people to believe they weren’t filled with rage and hate because the team lost one of the greatest players of all time and lost championship hopes with it. Instead they wanted people to believe it was how they player presented that information. Now the outrage is OK because it was something he did that was wrong, not because they didn’t get what they wanted.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 9:34 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
But then when the stakes are at its highest, and we’re at its climax, and the finality is near, people are sudden they’re upset because they had actually wanted those archetypes all along, not the moral complexities
Where's the moral complexity in burning the city to the ground after they surrender?
quote:
But this is dissonance.
No.
You've had a character who tried to be better than her tyrannical potential fail and do the mass murdering of innocent people. She's always been flawed, but has had moments of being benevolent. She didn't overcome her flaws, which works in the framework of not having wholly good or bad people.
With all the time invested in following her, it should have a tinge of tragedy. That she failed to be better after all of this.
quote:
And they increase the cognitive dissonance by first unnecessarily putting a character in the “good hero” box because she did some great things
Flawed hero =\= good hero.
quote:
then unnecessarily putting her in the “evil villain” box when she does some really bad things.
They showed her waiting for the city to surrender to start burning to the ground for a reason. There's no redemption from doing war crimes on that scale. The show put her in that box.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 9:48 pm to Duke
Just reading through this thread is crazy. The ending to this series is just bad. It’s bad. The actors know it. People with any kind of intelligence knows it. It’s fricking stupid and they dropped the ball. Blame whoever the frick you want. This shite is terrible.
If you like it, that’s awesome. I’m happy for you. I have no idea why you like this shite, but good for you.
If you like it, that’s awesome. I’m happy for you. I have no idea why you like this shite, but good for you.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 9:53 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 9:52 pm to RB10
quote:But what else could have been done to build this without actually going to a point where her genocidal potential was a real possibility to all of her allies. I mean they established her outright willingness in Mereen, and they established her doing it on a small enough scale to excuse it in the moment but not make it obvious to the character’s she needs to support her, or even herself for that matter. And then this season they established the context to allow for this to happen (Jon’s birthright as a threat; traumatized by the loss of those closest to her; losing advisers to stop her; distrusting the advisers left who could stop her).
Wanting to understand why Dany has gone full fledged murder queen is wanting the moral complexities, and more importantly, to see those moral complexities rip at her a little bit before revealing the outcome.
And while I guess all of the context they built could have been more impactful to the viewer if the season was longer, since the death of Jorah, Drogon, and Missandei would have been spaced apart between more episodes, like we grew accustomed to, maybe even a little dependent on it. I actually think a lot of this is what’s happening and it’s on us (I do it to). We’ve used the latency between events in our own time to judge the impact of events in the show’s time. Maybe it’s impossible not to do, but that’s not a lack of development, even if it is their own doing for shortening the season.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 9:56 pm to Duke
quote:
They showed her waiting for the city to surrender to start burning to the ground for a reason. There's no redemption from doing war crimes on that scale. The show put her in that box.
Agreed. The show runners/writers made damn sure that her actions were absolutely heinous and not justified by any tactical considerations whatsoever. I'm guessing they just didn't want next week to include any debate over whether what she did was justified on any grounds. Seems like they wanted good v. evil in the end after all.
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