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re: Game of Thrones S8E5 "The Bells" is officially the worst reviewed GOT episode yet
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:00 pm to buckeye_vol
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:00 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
But what else could have been done to build this without actually going to a point where her genocidal potential was a real possibility to all of her allies.
You answered it yourself:
quote:
And while I guess all of the context they built could have been more impactful to the viewer if the season was longer, since the death of Jorah, Drogon, and Missandei would have been spaced apart between more episodes, like we grew accustomed to, maybe even a little dependent on it.
I wouldn't even say this particular season had to be longer. The fact that they decided to push the NK storyline and Dany's into season 8 was the big mistake. That's two major plot lines that people are going to want to see some depth to squeezed into a very tight window.
Someone else posted this in another thread (I'm summarizing a bit):
Wrap up the NK story line in season 7 by extending it 2-3 episodes. Leave the cliffhanger of Jon telling Dany the truth about his identity. This leaves the entire final season to add depth to her sinking into what we saw Sunday.
It's such a simple fix that we didn't get because the writers wanted this done quickly rather than cleanly. If you want to argue this point, just remember that HBO greenlit 10 episodes for both season 7 and season 8. The writers set the hard cap of 13 in the final 2 seasons.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 10:04 pm
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Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:01 pm to Scoob
That's a great summary of it all.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:03 pm to SammyTiger
quote:Jon, her wonderful lover with whom she'd like to run away with and never return to public life (ep 1), has suddenly turned away from her, and also now has the superior claim to the Iron Throne- her purpose in life.
o you think her immediately calling out JS for betraying her wasn’t paranoid?
Because that’s the first scene with her in the last episode when Tyrion goes to talk to hwr
She's begged him to forget about the incest angle, and she's begged him to keep this secret. He's rejected her romantic advances but doesn't come out and state the reason (just say "I'm sorry, I can't sleep with my aunt"), and now Dany's hearing the whispers of there being someone better qualified for the Throne.
Did Jon just play her? I don't think she seriously believes that, but the timing of it all sure was bad.
Regarding burning the people, the one thing that really bugs me is this- why not make a run directly at the Red Keep instead? Even with a surrender, she burns Cersei to ashes.
Even fully nuts, it makes a lot more believable story. She isn't giggling insanely cooking toddlers in the streets, she's full on blood-lusted, and Cersei has to die.
I mean, if not for the cave-in in the dungeon, Cersei escapes, because she's remodeling the suburbs instead of destroying her.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:06 pm to Duke
quote:Well at least her rationalization is that she’ll ensure that there is no one willing to dare threaten her power, and then she’ll allow the rest of the citizens to prosper in her peaceful rule. In reality, she’s probably telling herself that, but she really just wants to ensure the power she had believed she was entitled to, but with that entitlement out the window, “might is right” is her approach.
Where's the moral complexity in burning the city to the ground after they surrender?
quote:She was on the verge of mass murdering an entire city once before, and that was when she trusted Tyrion when he tried to stop her, and before she was traumatized, and before her ultimate goal was threatened.
You've had a character who tried to be better than her tyrannical potential fail and do the mass murdering of innocent people.
quote:And a murderer with moments of a desire to commit genocide. Her character could have gone either way, although she never would have been or will be truly good or evil.
She's always been flawed, but has had moments of being benevolent.
quote:And it already is a tragedy, and I think we’ll see the reality of that next episode.
With all the time invested in following her, it should have a tinge of tragedy. That she failed to be better after all of this.
quote:Fair enough. But she can be a hero and savior for some and conquerer and dictator to others. Afterall “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter,” has a lot of truth to it.
Flawed hero =\= good hero.
quote:I didn’t say she was going to be redeemed. I was just saying that we shouldn’t just see it as “she’s plain evil or plain insane.”
They showed her waiting for the city to surrender to start burning to the ground for a reason. There's no redemption from doing war crimes on that scale. The show put her in that box.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:07 pm to Scoob
quote:
Regarding burning the people, the one thing that really bugs me is this- why not make a run directly at the Red Keep instead? Even with a surrender, she burns Cersei to ashes.
Even fully nuts, it makes a lot more believable story. She isn't giggling insanely cooking toddlers in the streets, she's full on blood-lusted, and Cersei has to die.
I mean, if not for the cave-in in the dungeon, Cersei escapes, because she's remodeling the suburbs instead of destroying her.
I think this is the crux of the issue. The question most people have is why did she do it? The answer being given is that she's simply gone insane. Some of us just aren't satisfied with that answer.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:09 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
I was just saying that we shouldn’t just see it as “she’s plain evil or plain insane.”
This is what us who want more detail are looking for. Because right now, the only really solid answer is exactly what you just said we shouldn't see it as.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:11 pm to RB10
quote:As a viewer at least we got the satisfaction of Cersei’s realization that she’s lost and the pure horror of that realization, which turned her into a scared nobody like those in the streets.
I think this is the crux of the issue. The question most people have is why did she do it? The answer being given is that she's simply gone insane. Some of us just aren't satisfied with that answer.
Now maybe this was a purely for the viewer, but I don’t think it’s a stretch for Dany to decide if I’m going to burn it down, I want Cersei to suffer as much terror as possible before she meets her fate. If that was satisfying for us, then we can’t fault her for that satisfaction either.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:15 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
As a viewer at least we got the satisfaction of Cersei’s realization that she’s lost and the pure horror of that realization, which turned her into a scared nobody like those in the streets.
Cersei dying was right at the top of the list of things I wanted to see.
quote:
Now maybe this was a purely for the viewer, but I don’t think it’s a stretch for Dany to decide if I’m going to burn it down, I want Cersei to suffer as much terror as possible before she meets her fate. If that was satisfying for us, then we can’t fault her for that satisfaction either.
There were other ways to make Cersei suffer, though it would take a clear headed person to see them. Dany certainly was not clear headed.
To be honest, all we're doing now is coming up with more potential motivations for Dany to do it, which is just making me want those motivations explored more than before.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:15 pm to RB10
quote:But they gave us plenty of answers that it’s not just that. Now maybe someone wants to say “I can’t separate an act like that from the actor” But that’s different than saying we weren’t given motivations that it was more than just evil and/or insanity without a logical endgame.
This is what us who want more detail are looking for. Because right now, the only really solid answer is exactly what you just said we shouldn't see it as
Of course, they intentionally left Dany off the screen for the rest of the episode. I actually liked that part a lot even though I wanted to see how she was acting throughout. Now I liked that because I expect the finale to give is some more insight of some sort, so if that doesn’t happen then I’ll probably view it differently.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 10:19 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:17 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
But they gave us plenty of answers that it’s not just that. Now maybe someone wants to say “I can’t separate an act like that from the actor” But that’s different than saying we weren’t given motivations that it was more than just evil and/or insanity without a logical endgame.
No, we weren't. We were given glimpses that she's capable of both good actions and cruel actions, just like most of the characters.
Now, we're stuck believing she was either evil the whole time and just hiding it, or that she just went insane. Those are the only outcomes that make any sort of sense.
I hate to break it to you buddy, but that is the writers forcing her into that villain box. Let's also not act like those boxes weren't there from the beginning for some characters. Cersei and Joffrey weren't ever given any moral flexibility. They were put in the villain box from day 1.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 10:22 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:20 pm to buckeye_vol
We never even got a reaction from Varys to Littlefinger dying. Would have taken very little time to show that.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:24 pm to RB10
quote:They gave us that, but they also gave us her rationale for what she was going to do and why she was going to do it. And that was built up throughout the season as well.
No, we weren't. We were given glimpses that she's capable of both good actions and cruel actions, just like the rest of the characters.
quote:If you say so. She’s surely the final antagonist (at least in this story), but I don’t think they’re forcing her to be the villain archetype. In other words, she’s more on the side of a less crazy version of two-face than a “want to watch the world burn for the sake of burning” joker.
I hate to break it to you buddy, but that is the writers forcing her into that villain box.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 10:27 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:26 pm to weagle99
quote:Why would we have cared to see that reaction?
We never even got a reaction from Varys to Littlefinger dying. Would have taken very little time to show that.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:28 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
Well at least her rationalization is that she’ll ensure that there is no one willing to dare threaten her power
Her rationalization doesn't make it better or anywhere close to be justified. She gonna die for it.
quote:
She was on the verge of mass murdering an entire city once before, and that was when she trusted Tyrion when he tried to stop her, and before she was traumatized, and before her ultimate goal was threatened.
Hence, flawed.
She was also about the struggle of slaves. Breaking the wheel and all that.
quote:
Her character could have gone either way, although she never would have been or will be truly good or evil.
Yeah, but war crimin lands you way closer to evil than otherwise. She was set to have gone either way, it is just weird there's no discussion of how it made people feel. Not how they feel about the writing, but how it made you feel.
quote:
And it already is a tragedy, and I think we’ll see the reality of that next episode.
That's fair but it should have hit here too and could have with enough time. In part, for the reasons mentioned in a previous post of yours. The time experienced between episodes for the viewer to have things marinate and thus wouldn't feel like a race to the point of the turn.
Ever binge older network shows? Relationships seem rushed without the time gap. It's how our brains work, and thus it's failing not to use it.
Thought it was a decent point when you brought it up, just have a different blame.
quote:
But she can be a hero and savior for some and conquerer and dictator to others. Afterall “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter,” has a lot of truth to it.
I'm sure that will be the case for the surviving unsullied.
quote:
I was just saying that we shouldn’t just see it as “she’s plain evil or plain insane.”
Man, firebombing a city for no reason is going to be evil no matter the why presented. Just as making the universe a better place by killing half of life is evil, despite wanting to make it better for those who are left.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:28 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
They gave us that, but they also gave us her rationale for what she was going to do and why she was going to do it. And that was built up throughout the season as well.
That everyone either died or betrayed her so she's going to commit genocide?
Personally, I'd put that under the "she just went insane" umbrella.
quote:
If you say so. She’s surely the final antagonist (at least in this story), but I don’t think they’re forcing her to be the villain archetype. In other words, she’s more on the side of a less crazy version of two-face than a “want to reach the world burn for the sake of burning” joker.
Eh. She definitely just set the city on fire just to watch it burn though.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:30 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
Why would we have cared to see that reaction?
Varys and Littlefinger were huge rivals and were manipulating the entire kingdom in opposition to each other for much of the show.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:46 pm to Duke
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:48 pm to weagle99
quote:
Varys and Littlefinger were huge rivals and were manipulating the entire kingdom in opposition to each other for much of the show.
Littlefinger behind Sansa vs. Varys behind Dany would have been a neat little tangent.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:49 pm to RB10
quote:That everyone who would have been able to stop her was no longer alive or trusted enough to stop her. Plus in reality trauma can and often does bring out people’s worst thoughts and feelings, and new one’s on top of that. Look at what trauma has done to soldiers during (and even after war). Suicide and murder are not uncommon post-trauma, and soldiers and platoons of soldiers, even our own soldiers, have decided murder and rape entire villages.
That everyone either died or betrayed her so she's going to commit genocide?
So if these things like that happen in OUR REALITY, to people growing up in a far more civilized society than what Dany grew up in, why would I be surprised if she does horrible things.
On top of that, we have the issue of power. And I already noted that al-Assad was once a shining example of a reformer for the better in the region for years. And now after things went bad pretty quickly and his power was threatened, he’s accused of committing genocidal war crimes against his own people.
So why she we hold a higher standard of justification in our fiction than what exists in our reality?
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 10:51 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 10:53 pm to Duke
What sucks is that unless they do a VERY good job of ep 6, the lasting impression of Dany is "crazy bitch burning the city".
My final impression of Cersei was sympathetic, as she cried in Jaime's arms and he soothed her. I even felt a bit sad for her.
Jaime has been both villain and hero, but he's going out as a noble figure, you wanted him to reach Cersei (even if you weren't sure if he'd kill her or save her). Yet the first 2 seasons I wanted him dead in a horrible manner.
My impression of Dany most of the entire series was that she was basically one of the "good guys". And I wanted her to take Cersei out with her dragons. It was a bit uncomfortable that Sansa would bitch at her (can't you trust Jon on this?), and now, she's completely batshit. Even if you justify it by establishing total dominance in the kingdom, you don't reconcile the wanton burning for the sake of it, and not even strategic targets. Take out the Red Keep after the surrender, and I'm still willing to accept her.
We had time for a Jaime redemption, we had time for a Theon redemption. We don't have time for a Dany redemption.
My final impression of Cersei was sympathetic, as she cried in Jaime's arms and he soothed her. I even felt a bit sad for her.
Jaime has been both villain and hero, but he's going out as a noble figure, you wanted him to reach Cersei (even if you weren't sure if he'd kill her or save her). Yet the first 2 seasons I wanted him dead in a horrible manner.
My impression of Dany most of the entire series was that she was basically one of the "good guys". And I wanted her to take Cersei out with her dragons. It was a bit uncomfortable that Sansa would bitch at her (can't you trust Jon on this?), and now, she's completely batshit. Even if you justify it by establishing total dominance in the kingdom, you don't reconcile the wanton burning for the sake of it, and not even strategic targets. Take out the Red Keep after the surrender, and I'm still willing to accept her.
We had time for a Jaime redemption, we had time for a Theon redemption. We don't have time for a Dany redemption.
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