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re: Game of Thrones S8E5 "The Bells" is officially the worst reviewed GOT episode yet
Posted on 5/14/19 at 11:49 am to SammyTiger
Posted on 5/14/19 at 11:49 am to SammyTiger
Well she went to Meereen to liberate the slaves. They obviously welcomed the opportunity for freedom.
She planned on going to King's Landing to usurp a queen. Westeros is a free realm so yeah, some of the people might not care for an "invasion".
Two totally different objectives and outcomes.
She planned on going to King's Landing to usurp a queen. Westeros is a free realm so yeah, some of the people might not care for an "invasion".
Two totally different objectives and outcomes.
0
Posted on 5/14/19 at 11:55 am to RB10
quote:quote:
Exactly. And later on when she ambushed the Army of the Lannisters and its allies, when she fried Dickon, she wasn’t doing that to a “bad guy,” despite actually having counsel to not do it, despite having time to think about it, and despite not having really lost anything but some tactical advantages.
None of this comes close to going into a city of millions, which already had the defending forces surrender and killing everyone indiscriminately. Not to mention it was premeditated. She didn't care if they surrendered or not, she was killing everyone.
They're not even remotely the same thing.
I noticed that you failed to include the second paragraph of that post, where in no way was it said to be the equivalent only stating that the leap from A to B isn't that far.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 11:56 am
Posted on 5/14/19 at 11:56 am to Sasquatch Smash
quote:
I noticed that you failed to include the second paragraph of that post, where in no way was it said to be the equivalent only stating that the leap from A to B isn't that far.
You serious? The leap from killing two opposing "leaders" to razing an entire city is massive.
ETA: Ruthlessness, when necessary, has been a common occurrence with Dany. Homicidal maniac has not. Killing two opposing leaders fell in line with her character, Kings Landing did not.
***Disclaimer: I am not saying she couldn't or wouldn't eventually become homicidal. It was certainly a possible outcome. I'm saying the reasoning behind it happening, and the quick switch flip nature of it was all lazy story telling.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 12:02 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:03 pm to RB10
quote:If you noticed, I didn't include the actual General in (Randyll). Dickon was just a son following his father's orders and command. And the show went out of the way to show that he seemed to be a pretty nice guy, and then made a point to reinforce that by showing Sam's reaction to the knowledge of brother's death and contrast it with the reaction to his father's.
You serious? The leap from killing two opposing generals to razing an entire city is massive.
Besides being a solider, and being to prideful for his own good, Dickon was presented as far closer to the citizens burned in King's Landing than Cersei and probably even his own father.
So she's gone from murdering the "bad guys," (slavers, dotrhaki leaders, etc.) in Essos, but had to be restrained from burning it all down when things got rough, to burning an imprisoned soldier who was at worst reluctant to accept a conqueror, and likely just too prideful to do it in the moment, had nobody to restrain her when things got rough.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 12:08 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:07 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
If you noticed, I didn't include the actual General in (Randyll). Dickon was just a son following his father's orders and command. And the show went out of the way to show that he seemed to be a pretty nice guy, and then made a point to reinforce that by showing Sam's reaction to the knowledge of brother's death and contrast it with the reaction to his father's.
Besides being a solider, and being to prideful for his own good, Dickon was presented as far closer to the citizens burned in King's Landing than Cersei and probably even his own father.
She saw him as an enemy who was refusing to accept her rule. Was she right in her decision? No, not at all. Even still, there was a modicum of rationale there for why it was done.
Now we circle back around to the genocide. No rationale whatsoever, only indiscriminate slaughter. The arc was available to reach this point with her, it just needed to be explored.
They chose not to simply for the shock value of it. A slow burn revealing her true nature would have been better than the delivery we received.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 12:09 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:19 pm to Argonaut
quote:
They're losing their shite because their feminist icon isn't the character they wanted her to be.
I'm about as anti-feminist as it gets. I was called a sexist by some on this board who defended The Last Jedi. It's the writing, dude. That's what hurt the show for a lot of people in Game of Thrones S8E3 and what killed the show for me and others in this last episode.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:19 pm to RB10
quote:And her decision was to murder someone for nothing other than refusing to serve her own self-interests, and giving him only a few seconds to make a decision (against the advice of Tyrion to imprison him), so that she could make an example of those who don't serve her self-interest.
She saw him as an enemy who was refusing to accept her rule. Was she right in her decision? No, not at all. Even still, there was a modicum of rationale there for why it was done.
quote:Genocide is just murder on a large scale. If you can accept her rationale to murder for her own self-interests against trusted advice to do otherwise and when things were pretty good, then how can you not accept the rationale to murder on a larger scale to serve those same self-interests without trusted advice (since she didn't trust Tyrion) and when things are going terribly (death, betrayal, threat to birthright, etc.)?
Now we circle back around to the genocide.
I mean you don't have to like it at all and believe it didn't have to be inevitable, but I think arguing that it doesn't make sense given her character's history, is ignoring her character's history.
And like I said, there are literally examples of leaders TODAY, who were believed to be GOOD when things were good and then resorting to straight up genocidal war criminals when things got bad against those who had been their citizens for decades, not just those who were just running towards their enemies for protection a few minutes beforehand.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 12:20 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:21 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
What? In his alternate version, nothing else changes except that Raeghal dies in episode 5 instead of 4. The “betrayal” already happened. Basically have Euron snipe Raeghal while the bells are ringing and Dany has stopped fighting assuming they were surrendering. Her getting tricked again, Tyrion advice failing her for the final time, losing another child, then she snaps. That would have been 10x better.
But it absolutely changes everything. An army “surrenders” and then takes out the main source of her power? Then she has a reason other than mad insane power to fight to the end and not trust any surrender.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:22 pm to RB10
quote:
***Disclaimer: I am not saying she couldn't or wouldn't eventually become homicidal. It was certainly a possible outcome. I'm saying the reasoning behind it happening, and the quick switch flip nature of it was all lazy story telling.
i don't know why this is so difficult
i think most people critical of the 180 figured she'd go Mad Queen, but how it occurred was just bad
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:22 pm to RB10
quote:
A slow burn revealing her true nature would have been better than the delivery we received.
This is it exactly. Up until this point, she only ever killed those who had wronged her in some form or fashion. She had never shown any inclination to harm the common people at all. In fact, she went out of her way to be available to the commoners when they needed help from their Queen.
We all knew the show had set up moments throughout the eight seasons where it looked like Dany could eventually go Mad Queen on her enemies. But not once did the show set up that she was capable of indiscriminately slaughtering innocent people.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:23 pm to RollTide1987
quote:Yeah. But we've seen how you're willing to judge the quality of comic book films by the universe of the comic publisher well beyond any rational favoritism towards a particular universe. We all have irrational bases for our subjective preferences, but you have shown some to be a little more irrational than others, so don't pretend to be someone who purely derives his opinion based on objective critical analysis.
I'm about as anti-feminist as it gets. I was called a sexist by some on this board who defended The Last Jedi. It's the writing, dude. That's what hurt the show for a lot of people in Game of Thrones S8E3 and what killed the show for me and others in this last episode.
This post was edited on 5/14/19 at 12:26 pm
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:23 pm to RollTide1987
i thought it was a good episode. Meh. People just pissed things arent panning out the way they wanted, which really shouldnt surprise anyone, its GOT, nothing pans out the way you think.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:23 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
I mean you don't have to like it at all and believe it didn't have to be inevitable, but I think arguing that it doesn't make sense given her character's history, is ignoring her character's history.
I've sat here and literally said it makes sense for her character to end up where she did. What doesn't make sense is how quickly they made it happen because they wanted the shock value.
I've said this multiple times. You're taking me saying "they did it poorly" to mean I'm saying "they shouldn't have done it".
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:24 pm to RollTide1987
What did you want for a slow burn? Her killing random villagers?
I am Not sure what more people wanted here. I think They did a pretty good job building up to her snapping.
I am Not sure what more people wanted here. I think They did a pretty good job building up to her snapping.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:24 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
she went out of her way to be available to the commoners when they needed help from their Queen.
she chained up 2 of her dragons because one child died
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:24 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i don't know why this is so difficult
i think most people critical of the 180 figured she'd go Mad Queen, but how it occurred was just bad
I've explained it so many times already. I'm getting a headache.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:24 pm to RB10
quote:
how quickly they made it happen because they wanted the shock value.
i'm not even sure if it was for pure shock value, or they just didn't have the time to develop it
it's probably some of both
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:24 pm to RB10
It's not like any mercy was shown to her family.
They murdered her family. Babies were smashed against the wall. Martel was raped and butchered by the Mountain. She and her brother were hunted for a good part of their lives.
Someone has been trying to kill her since she was born. What kind of effect would that have on most people in similar circumstances?
She knows Jon can be used to supplant her even if he doesn't want to do so. She can be assassinated and then the assassins will press Jon to take thrown, which he would do to preserve order.
They murdered her best friend. Killed her allies in the Queen of Thornes and the hideous sand snakes.
She is in kill or be killed mode.
They murdered her family. Babies were smashed against the wall. Martel was raped and butchered by the Mountain. She and her brother were hunted for a good part of their lives.
Someone has been trying to kill her since she was born. What kind of effect would that have on most people in similar circumstances?
She knows Jon can be used to supplant her even if he doesn't want to do so. She can be assassinated and then the assassins will press Jon to take thrown, which he would do to preserve order.
They murdered her best friend. Killed her allies in the Queen of Thornes and the hideous sand snakes.
She is in kill or be killed mode.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:24 pm to caro81
quote:
People just pissed things arent panning out the way they wanted
this meme literally lacks any relevance to this discussion
Posted on 5/14/19 at 12:25 pm to RB10
quote:
She saw him as an enemy who was refusing to accept her rule. Was she right in her decision? No, not at all. Even still, there was a modicum of rationale there for why it was done.
Do you need them to spell it out for you? Inch by inch time by time she has done some unspeakable things with less and less justification and now she is essentially alone in a foreign land with her identity gone. It was time for a snap.
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