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Started By
Message
re: Republicans Fail to See the Biggest Issue Costing them Undecided Voters
Posted on 8/30/24 at 11:57 am to FooManChoo
Posted on 8/30/24 at 11:57 am to FooManChoo
quote:
"Important variables" (premises) are necessary to an argument. I'm happy to discuss those premises.
That's a different discussion. A non-political discussion not appropriate for this board.
quote:
OK, and removing the framing assumption that slaves are human changes the argumentation against slavery.
Sure. Framing was used then, too.
Clearly there were lots of disagreements over the issue, hence the Civil War.
quote:
It's definitionally true the the human offspring inside the mother is her child and the child is a child (law of identify) based on accepted definitions of biological offspring being "children" of their parents. A child in the womb is the biological offspring of its parents, thus, it is a child of its parents, whether that be inside the womb or outside.
Even the word "fetus" provides clarity on this issue. While many use the word "fetus" as a value statement of the child rather than merely a technical term for development, the word, itself, is Latin for "offspring", which, again, is what a child is. So even the dehumanizing usage of the word "fetus" is simply saying that the child is a child in another language.
All you're doing is stating your framing.
The majority of the country doesn't agree, hence the data on how they see abortion as a political issue.
quote:
So back to the argument: if the argument is that abortion should be tolerated or even promoted in instances of rape (I believe it applies to incest, as well), and the only--or at least primary--argument provided is that it's cruel, mean, or "barbaric" to require a mother to carry the child of her rapist, then that doesn't provide a rational support for the exception.
Sure, and as I said, if your assumption/framing is not valid, then the bans on these exceptions turn to the irrational/emotional side. Or, as I said specifically:
Remove this framing and it becomes emotional to oppose the exceptions.
Repeating your framing to create the same paradigm it produces is nothing more than repeating the existence of your framing.
1
Posted on 8/30/24 at 11:58 am to RFK
So how do they feel with a Democrats wanting to abort babies thru the 3rd trimester? That is what the Dems want to do and have done in a couple states I believe.
So that is more palatable to them than states outlawing abortion?
They need to remember this is a state issue and each state can decide their law.
So that is more palatable to them than states outlawing abortion?
They need to remember this is a state issue and each state can decide their law.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:10 pm to RFK
If they’re buying into nonsense the GOP is pushing Federal legislation to ban abortion they are not thinking as clearly as their advanced degrees and education imply.
They seem to me to be thoughtless, self-centered, and short-sighted.
If they are unhappy with the individual States deciding abortion policy, it seems what they’re wanting is Federal legislation making nationwide abortion legal-sponsored and supported by the GOP-or they will vote Democrat in 2024. This principled “socially liberal” vote will pitchfork additional millions more babies into the abortion mills, many more babies of color than white and, as a corollary, put Marxists in power, probably in perpetuity, and fatally wreck the economy ending any hope of “fiscal responsibility”.
Perhaps they’re being disingenuous and think their economic and social status immunizes them from the consequences of their votes allowing them to weather the storm they unleash, either unaware or unconcerned that it will swamp the boats of hundreds of millions of their fellow Americans.
Is this how they perceive and use the power granted them by the franchise?
Thoughtless. Self-centered. Short-sighted. This is why some question the wisdom of voting women and women voting.
You need to try and persuade them to do the right thing. Three votes here and there may matter.
They seem to me to be thoughtless, self-centered, and short-sighted.
If they are unhappy with the individual States deciding abortion policy, it seems what they’re wanting is Federal legislation making nationwide abortion legal-sponsored and supported by the GOP-or they will vote Democrat in 2024. This principled “socially liberal” vote will pitchfork additional millions more babies into the abortion mills, many more babies of color than white and, as a corollary, put Marxists in power, probably in perpetuity, and fatally wreck the economy ending any hope of “fiscal responsibility”.
Perhaps they’re being disingenuous and think their economic and social status immunizes them from the consequences of their votes allowing them to weather the storm they unleash, either unaware or unconcerned that it will swamp the boats of hundreds of millions of their fellow Americans.
Is this how they perceive and use the power granted them by the franchise?
Thoughtless. Self-centered. Short-sighted. This is why some question the wisdom of voting women and women voting.
You need to try and persuade them to do the right thing. Three votes here and there may matter.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:13 pm to RFK
quote:
But they see the issue not necessarily as one of a decision to have an abortion or not, but as a politician making a choice for them that they feel should be their’s to make, whatever that choice may be.
That's stupid. The politicians have NOT made a choice. The Dems want the politicians to make a choice by passing a Constitutional Amendment making abortion a right. Instead, the politicians said 'We refuse to get involved. The states can handle it.'
This means the woman is totally in charge of making the choice to get in the car and drive to an abortion.
If you insist that your state have legal abortion then don't bother the President, House or Senate. Bother your state legislature.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:16 pm to Mr. Misanthrope
quote:
They need to remember this is a state issue and each state can decide their law.
quote:
If they’re buying into nonsense the GOP is pushing Federal legislation to ban abortion they are not thinking as clearly as their advanced degrees and education imply.
Having this be a national issue for Republicans doesn't require a federal law.
quote:
If they are unhappy with the individual States deciding abortion policy, it seems what they’re wanting is Federal legislation making nationwide abortion legal-sponsored and supported by the GOP-or they will vote Democrat in 2024.
No. What the GOP needs is a unified front with reasonable GOP positions on the issue to kill it as an issue the DEMs can use.
If you leave it blank (like this "it's a state issue" strategy does), then you create an avatar for the DEMs/Left to create in any way they choose. Trump not having a defined policy preference means they can just say he's for absolute bans (he is the reason Roe was overturned after all, and this allowed many states to enact near-absolute bans).
quote:
This principled “socially liberal” vote will pitchfork additional millions more babies into the abortion mills, many more babies of color than white and, as a corollary, put Marxists in power, probably in perpetuity, and fatally wreck the economy ending any hope of “fiscal responsibility”.
Will there be more or fewer abortions if the DEMs sweep in November?
quote:
Perhaps they’re being disingenuous and think their economic and social status immunizes them from the consequences of their votes allowing them to weather the storm they unleash, either unaware or unconcerned that it will swamp the boats of hundreds of millions of their fellow Americans.
Is this how they perceive and use the power granted them by the franchise?
Thoughtless. Self-centered. Short-sighted. This is why some question the wisdom of voting women and women voting.
THIS is how you get these women to vote GOP again. Not only do you take unreasonable and unpopular positions, you insult them for not joining you.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:17 pm to RFK
You guys made this bed, and now you have to lie in it. Welcome to the political wilderness.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:18 pm to TxTiger82
quote:
You guys made this bed, and now you have to lie in it.
There is an easy solution that I laid out that would nerf the DEMs completely on the issue, and Trump has the bully pulpit and control of the GOP to do it.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:19 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:While that is my opinion and belief, that isn't merely my opinion and belief. This discussion isn't merely talking about opinions but discussing truth claims. Either it is true that human life begins at conception or it is not. I'm providing arguments for why I believe it is true that it begins at conception. Others can provide their own arguments, but this isn't merely a discussion about preferences as you are making it out to be. Truth extends beyond opinion.
And that's your opinion.
quote:Truth doesn't exist due a consensus opinion or belief. As someone else said, at one point the majority report in America was that African slaves were not human, or at least not fully human, and/or that it was morally acceptable to kidnap people from their home lands and force them to perform manual labor as animals or property. Opinions can and do change over time, so whether or not I'm in the majority or minority on this issue at this moment in this country is frankly irrelevant.
Clearly, it's the minority opinion in the US today.
quote:It's a biological reality that at conception, all the information needed for a human offspring to be human (it's not something other than human) exists, and from that moment, unless a natural death (miscarriage) occurs, the human offspring in its mother will continue to grow and develop until birth, just like every human being in his/her family tree before. Any other determination beyond the biological reality is pure arbitrariness, which is what these discussions are intended to draw attention to.
No. He's saying development determines when those cells become a human being. You choose conception for this.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:21 pm to RFK
quote:
personally fail to see how involving the government in a healthcare decision like abortion is any different from forcing vaccines on people (which these women, especially the ER physician, did not support). Regardless, the GOP should stop dragging themselves down with this issue for political reasons.
Baby put down vs vaccine mandate
Not the same
Liberals want government to enforce tampons in bathrooms but have an issue with guardrails on abortion ?
Makes zero sense
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:22 pm to RFK
Cool.
So they'll vote for unlimited abortions- which could come in handier than they hope it would thanks to the continued open border that would be a part of the package they're voting for.
Brilliant move, Helen Reddy.
So they'll vote for unlimited abortions- which could come in handier than they hope it would thanks to the continued open border that would be a part of the package they're voting for.
Brilliant move, Helen Reddy.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:26 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
80-90% of the country disagreeing has no bearing on the moral correctness of their opinion.
Not unless you think morality = popularity contest, in which case you have to admit that slavery in 1860 was 100% moral.
Of course..My point is right now having the position that no abortion should take place unless the mother is about die on the table is not a where the vast majority of the country is so taking that position is a losing position. As I said this will take time to sort out and simplifying the issue and just stating ... whores want the ability to chop up their babies is ridiculous.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:31 pm to RFK
They are advocating the killing of children. Probably NOT a "choice" the child themselves would make. This IS about "choice", right?
It doesn't matter to me how they frame the conversation. The end result is the same. An innocent living human is being terminated.
I'm non-negotiable on the issue. It is my firm belief that someday those advocates for abortion will be seen as monsters, just like the Nazis who exterminated the Jews.
I'm more than willing to stick to my core beliefs till I'm cold in a box. Because if I lose on the issue by standing my ground, then the alternative is the same as if I just give in.
I just hope there's always more of "me" than there is of "them".
It doesn't matter to me how they frame the conversation. The end result is the same. An innocent living human is being terminated.
I'm non-negotiable on the issue. It is my firm belief that someday those advocates for abortion will be seen as monsters, just like the Nazis who exterminated the Jews.
I'm more than willing to stick to my core beliefs till I'm cold in a box. Because if I lose on the issue by standing my ground, then the alternative is the same as if I just give in.
I just hope there's always more of "me" than there is of "them".
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:32 pm to Fat Bastard
quote:
so muh drumpf banned all abortions? really? link?
educate the dumbass women in your life.
you are a LOSER AND FAILURE
crickets.
OP is a cuck
This post was edited on 8/30/24 at 12:33 pm
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:38 pm to RFK
Educated suburban white women voted for Kemp big time, after his heartbeat bill and Dobbs decision.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:39 pm to RFK
Those women are voting left no matter what my man.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:41 pm to deeprig9
quote:
Educated suburban white women voted for Kemp big time, after his heartbeat bill and Dobbs decision.
I think it's pretty tough to disentangle the suburban mom position on Trump and the impacts of abortion on races involving/relating to Trump.
Candidly, I think we'll probably need to be post-Trump before we can tell how much was genuinely attributable to the abortion element.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:41 pm to RFK
quote:
But they see the issue not necessarily as one of a decision to have an abortion or not, but as a politician making a choice for them that they feel should be their’s to make, whatever that choice may be.
It speaks to the depravity of mankind that abortion is even in existence. This is why your family would not have one personally or offer one for a family member because deep down they know its wrong.
The female body is designed to give birth naturally rather than have a foreign device inserted into the uterus to suck the life out of the womb. Would this not do more damage to the female anatomy rather than giving natural birth?
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:41 pm to TDsngumbo
Don’t fund abortion with tax dollars and don’t require doctors to do it if they don’t want to.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:44 pm to ETT2001
quote:
It speaks to the depravity of mankind that abortion is even in existence.
I understand it in situations where the mom's real health is in danger.
But most women use it as a supplement for birth control proving they're not capable of managing their own lives.
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:47 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:
This is going to take years to work out and well it may cost Republicans elections for a while but thats the consequences of the Republican dog catching that abortion car.
I will agree that thought has to be put into it, but all the thought is for the tiny minority of exceptional situations.
Until it's generally agreed that the other 98.5% of cases are clear-cut, the Republican dog hasn't caught anything yet IMO. Or nothing worth much, anyway.
Dobbs/Row v Wade is nothing more than the rectification of bad activist SCOTUS law that never should have happened in the first place and should have been overturned a long time ago.
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