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re: Republicans Fail to See the Biggest Issue Costing them Undecided Voters

Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:47 pm to
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46862 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:47 pm to
quote:

That's a different discussion. A non-political discussion not appropriate for this board.
Of course it's appropriate and it's not a different discussion. It directly feeds into the political conversation about abortion. You can't talk tax policy without discussing more fundamental economic theory, but that doesn't mean all of those economic discussions should be moved to the Money Talk board.

quote:

Sure. Framing was used then, too.
It's interesting that you're discussing presuppositions, axioms, and premises in terms of "framing" rather than necessary preconditions for rational discussion.

quote:

Clearly there were lots of disagreements over the issue, hence the Civil War
Of course but the point is that it's important to discuss the premises of truth claims rather than just chalking everything up to just having differing opinions. Most people don't take time to consider why they hold the opinions that they hold, which is why these conversations are important.

quote:

All you're doing is stating your framing.
Defining terms and clearly stating presuppositions/premises isn't merely "framing". I'm explaining why truth claims require justification and how this discussion isn't merely about opinions.

quote:

The majority of the country doesn't agree, hence the data on how they see abortion as a political issue.
It doesn't matter if they agree or not in terms of the discussion itself or the arguments themselves. I don't personally care what the country agrees on in this particular discussion as that is irrelevant to the arguments being presented.

quote:

Sure, and as I said, if your assumption/framing is not valid, then the bans on these exceptions turn to the irrational/emotional side. Or, as I said specifically:

Remove this framing and it becomes emotional to oppose the exceptions.

Repeating your framing to create the same paradigm it produces is nothing more than repeating the existence of your framing.
All you're saying is that if you remove logic from an argument you are left with opinion. That's exactly what I've already said. I then explained why it's important to support your premises in an argument, which is what I've been doing. You aren't arguing against my premises but only saying that if my premises were wrong that I wouldn't have a rational argument. That's a tautology and doesn't actually help anything.

Sure, if my argument is illogical then the result is that it is illogical, but my point is that the argument for rape as an exception is illogical and explaining why. If you would like to provide a rational basis for why you disagree with me, then do it, otherwise you're just talking in circles and not providing anything of substance.
This post was edited on 8/30/24 at 12:51 pm
Posted by ETT2001
Member since Dec 2020
1106 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:48 pm to
quote:

I understand it in situations where the mom's real health is in danger.


Sure but willing to bet these situations are extremely rare and most are using it for selfish reasons. Medicine has come a long way since the and not many women are dying giving birth in the 2020s
Posted by moneyg
Member since Jun 2006
63039 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:48 pm to
quote:

I personally fail to see how involving the government in a healthcare decision like abortion is any different from forcing vaccines on people


99+% of the time, abortion isn’t a healthcare decision.
Posted by wackatimesthree
Member since Oct 2019
13479 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:48 pm to
quote:

Within your self-chosen framing.



Yes. My self-chosen framing is the framework of logic and reason.

I get that yours is emotion but as I have already opined, that's an awful basis from which to decide public policy. Pretty much every time.
This post was edited on 8/30/24 at 12:50 pm
Posted by Mr. Misanthrope
Cloud 8
Member since Nov 2012
6433 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:49 pm to
quote:

THIS is how you get these women to vote GOP again. Not only do you take unreasonable and unpopular positions, you insult them for not joining you.

So you’re content with them voting Democrat because it’s the “socially liberal” thing to do and for them to disregard the economic (and existential) threat to the Republic?
quote:

Will there be more or fewer abortions if the DEMs sweep in November?
Why don’t you ask them that question?
And maybe, “Do y’all really care about abortion beyond a personal choice abstraction?”

Posted by hashtag
Comfy, AF
Member since Aug 2005
33654 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:52 pm to
quote:

Trump not having a defined policy preference
he does. He's stated it many times before.
Posted by wackatimesthree
Member since Oct 2019
13479 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 12:55 pm to
quote:

Will there be more or fewer abortions if the DEMs sweep in November?


Not only that, but as much as he thinks it's a "gotcha," abortion went down before Roe v Wade was overturned.

It's been up since.

So it's not the foregone conclusion he thinks it is.

And that's beside the obvious, which is that when you're killing 800,000 human beings every year, reducing that number to 650,000 or preventing it from going up to 950,000 isn't the huge win he's making it out to be.

It can be a significant victory IF it's in the context of the needle continuing to move toward 0, but unless that's the case—which it wouldn't be if Republicans simply start appropriating Democratic abortion policies—it's not really any big gotcha.
Posted by oleheat
Sportsman's Paradise
Member since Mar 2007
14789 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:00 pm to
quote:

Those women are voting left no matter what my man.


This is true. We're talking about women who support being replaced by men who believe they're women- and also believe that Donald Trump is a secret FSB agent.
Posted by stampman
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
5239 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:02 pm to
quote:

Imagine being so stupid that the biggest issue for your vote is whether you're legally allowed to rip a baby to pieces.


Can you imagine living around blue hairs that believe the death of a baby is something to rejoice over? Since you say these women are well educated, we can surmise exactly where they got their beliefs....sad!
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
299631 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:03 pm to
quote:


Sure but willing to bet these situations are extremely rare


Yep.

Roughly a quarter of women who get abortions have multiple in their lifetime.

Its birth control for retards.
Posted by fwtex
Member since Nov 2019
3403 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:12 pm to
Sorry but the women you speak about may be book smart but they have little critical thinking skills. If abortion is their single issue vote decider then it appears they are just looking for a reason to vote Democrat. If they truly believe that the abortion issue is women's health, they are deep into liberal media as their information source.

A rationale woman who may have similar sentiments as your women about abortion understands that abortion is not a hill to die on when facing so many other political issues.
Posted by stampman
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
5239 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:12 pm to
quote:

Abortion is a states issue now. Trump supports extreme cases...rape, incest and health of the mother.

The left will never...I mean NEVER let this point get across to these women.


Correct-toe-mundo! Any woman who supports abortion as a method of birth control should never be called a "mother"! They don't quilify IMO.
Posted by Wednesday
Member since Aug 2017
17298 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:21 pm to
I agree with everything you just said with the exception of “healthcare decision.”

An elective abortion (and 95 percent of abortions are ‘elective’) is not healthcare. It’s birth control.

I am antiabortion and if I had it my way, the practice would be banned, especially if the abortion is in any way for the convenience of the people parenting the child.

The pro-life movement had 50 yrs to get their shite together on state legislation or policies that encourage life. But they didn’t. The best they could come up with was screaming “abortion is murder” at the top of their lungs.

The professional pro-lifers have only themselves to blame if Kamala gets elected. In which case we’ll have federal law forcing abortions till the moment of birth, even in the states which have enacted stringent restrictions on the practice.

Honestly, if that she-devil becomes the president it will be this issue alone that puts her there. And I will blame all these “pro life” people who are the dog who caught the car. Not the GOP. The prolife movement who appears to be cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Sincerely,
An educated, anti-abortion, woman.
Posted by BET
Member since Jul 2024
1390 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:24 pm to
So they want the choice to murder a baby in/out of womb politically? Got it....
This post was edited on 8/30/24 at 1:27 pm
Posted by VOR
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
68823 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:25 pm to
Abortion was a strategic error for the GOP. The evidence is pretty clear.
Posted by Azkiger
Member since Nov 2016
28141 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:26 pm to
quote:

Republicans Fail to See


I guessed the issue before clicking/reading the thread.

America will get what it votes for. If they're dumb enough to believe the Harris campaign lies they deserve everything they get.
Posted by wackatimesthree
Member since Oct 2019
13479 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:29 pm to
quote:

The pro-life movement had 50 yrs to get their shite together on state legislation or policies that encourage life. But they didn’t. The best they could come up with was screaming “abortion is murder” at the top of their lungs.


What legislation or policies should they have come up with?

Genuinely curious.

quote:

The professional pro-lifers have only themselves to blame if Kamala gets elected


Nah.

And that's why I'm asking the above. Is this another version of, "People HAVE to get abortions because Republicans don't want to take care of babies after they're born?"

If so, nope.

One has nothing to do with the other.

If I'm an incel and no one wants to voluntarily have sex with me so I rape you, that's still my fault. Not everybody's fault who wouldn't sleep with me voluntarily.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
299631 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:31 pm to
quote:

Abortion was a strategic error for the GOP


Pretty sad when sacrificing your kid so you can go do hootchie momma stuff leads to more votes.

Sounds like people who shouldnt be making political choices.
Posted by Wednesday
Member since Aug 2017
17298 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:38 pm to
Here are some suggestions:

1) Court Appointed probono attys for adoption provided to both the adoptive parents and the birth parents;

2) Waiver of court costs for adoption related proceedings;

3) Consent of father of child to abortion, and court ordered child support obligation entered upon withholding of consent, including responsibilities for medical expenses for prenatal care.

For starters.
Posted by llfshoals
Member since Nov 2010
20917 posts
Posted on 8/30/24 at 1:49 pm to
quote:

Can you imagine living around blue hairs that believe the death of a baby is something to rejoice over?
They insist it isn’t. They can’t tell you why they believe that, but because someone said it, and the media says “yep” they do.

The moment you attempt to educate them on the subject they do one of three things.

1 - They get violent
2 - They run away
3 - They have a panic attack

At no point do they listen because deep down they know they’re killing children. They just don’t want to admit it.

quote:

Since you say these women are well educated, we can surmise exactly where they got their beliefs....sad!
Their programming. That’s really what it is. If they believed something, they could articulate why.

They’ve become parrots, and it’s all they are capable of being.
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