re: National shelter in place due to the vinyl chloride spill in OH?

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There has been concerning discussions around it bonding to water vapor and becoming a major water contamination issue.

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In terms of HCL the solution is dilution. The more spread out the better. HCL is harmless in low concentrations. We use it in our pools to adjust pH.

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Mayor Pete doin work

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I hear he's pregnant again.

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National shelter in place due to the vinyl chloride spill in OH?

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Sounds like part of the plot of a Close Encounters of the Third Kind movie

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What are your thoughts on residual issues as the cloud dissipates and is deposited into water and soil?

There has been concerning discussions around it bonding to water vapor and becoming a major water contamination issue.

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Long post ahead, but since you asked..

So to start, let me point out that hydrogen chloride is not “toxic” in the same way as other chlorine compounds. It doesn’t bioaccumulate (again in the sense of other toxic substances). The main hazard of hydrogen chloride is that it dissolves into water forming hydrochloric acid. So if you are exposed to a cloud of HCl gas, it acidifies your mucous membranes causing acid burns.

From an environmental standpoint, the risk would be that enough HCl is deposited into local waterways to significantly depress the pH, killing off aquatic life.

Let’s do some math.

Assuming 179,000 lb load in a VCM car, that’s 1.3 million mol VCM. If 100% of the chlorine in VCM is converted to hydrogen chloride in combustion, that’s 1.3 million mol = 104,000 lb HCl.

The strongest hydrochloric acid solutions you can buy (50% by volume) are generally ~37% by weight. So that 104,000 lb of HCl gas represents the equivalent of roughly 3,800 gallons of strong hydrochloric acid solution (per VCM rail car burned off).

That’s if 100% of the VCM converts to HCl and if 100% of the HCl is ultimately absorbed by surface waters. In reality, HCl is highly volatile. It’s why solutions >50% by volume generally are not commercially available - the evaporation rate is too high.

I would expect the actual amount of HCl absorbed by local waterways to be significantly lower. How much lower is a matter of debate and I’m not an environmental chemist. Rain passing through the vapor cloud would increase absorption, while clear sunny days would decrease it.

Further, the actual impact of that HCl on surface waters will depend on the rate of absorption, the flow rates of the waterways, and the buffering capacity (alkalinity) of the water. Rivers are generally fairly alkaline and can thus absorb a fair amount of acid without much pH change. So for a fast moving river and a slow rate of absorption, there might be zero impact. For a pristine freshwater lake with no outflow that fills up with a lot of HCl, the impact might be enormous.

I think it would be naive to say there’s no environmental impact at all. But this is nowhere near a Chernobyl-level event despite some claims by sensationalists. We’ve likely had worse releases (environmentally speaking) from chemical plants on the Mississippi River in the past 15-20 years.

This is a bigger impact zone than is being discussed.

All I know is a whole bunch of people would be freaking the frick out if they knew what chemical plants like 3M and such handle on a daily bases.

If those same people did a minimum amount of research into past incidents at such plants, they'd dig a hole and never come out.

Like the gas is spewing out?

Yeah, frick all that. Thats some very nasty shite.

Also, to agree with the poster below me

National Shelter in Place?

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Any one report yet on whether this will impact the drinking water down the Mississippi River yet?

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I would be shocked if this had any appreciable impact on drinking water for the Lower Mississippi River.

I previously said that one VCM rail car burning off could produce at most the equivalent of ~3,800 worth of strong hydrochloric acid solution. Average flow at St. Louis is 1.3 million gallons per second. And the river is alkaline, meaning it will resist pH change while absorbing the acid.

On top of that, drinking water will ultimately be lime softened anyway which raises the pH to a target. Any acidity in the river water will just increase the amount of lime required to reach the target pH.

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You don't think a massive chemical spill of a deadly known carcinogen is a big deal?

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A national shelter in place? lol no.

Shake the sand out of your vagene.