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Instead of talking about the flag why aren't we talking about the issue behind the protest

Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:19 am
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
16927 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:19 am
I've heard this said over and over by people on the side of the kneelers across social media and other outlets. The very obvious answer to why the predominant coverage at the moment is over the flag and anthem is that, as they've admitted, they've chosen to protest a symbol and ceremony that actually doesn't have any relation to their claimed grievance. But the other observation is that we actually have been. For several years now.

The protesters and their supporters are peddling a narrative that they refuse to recognize is in contention. They operate on the premise that their position is fundamentally true and undeniable and that anyone who disagrees is doing so dishonestly in an effort to maintain a system of "oppression" and "murder" of blacks by police due to support for systematic racism.

If they want to have a conversation, they have to be able to recognize that their premise is not universally accepted nor is it legitimately proven. They also have to be willing to accept counterarguments that make them uncomfortable as well. Concession and recognition of opposing viewpoints as sincere and worthy of give and take is a precondition to any two opposing sides having a meaningful "conversation." And this conversation dominated news coverage throughout the previous years following the highly publicized incidents of police shootings. They were openly discussed on news networks nightly as well as across internet forums of all types. Yet they play dumb and pretend that those who disagree with the protests are hiding from or refuse to discuss the issue behind the protests, which is a manifest falsehood.

Effectively, counter viewpoints are flatly rejected by the crowd that peddles the narrative that police are actively killing blacks unjustly in alarming numbers with racial malice. They then perpetuate vague and unquantifiable accusations of systematic white privilege and racism, some of which is even "subconscious," as their retort to arguments critical of their claims. They then proceed to distract from their argument by engaging in theatrics that don't present a clear argument and doesn't encourage a substantive discussion but rather provokes a response to their provocative demonstrations. And then turn around and complain that their message isn't being heard or is being deliberately twisted.

So the question is, do they actually want a conversation or do they rather demand that everyone submit to their unsubstantiated and conspiratorial narrative without recognizing the validity of any opinions but their own? I for one am perfectly happy to discuss their accusations, but I've seen nothing whatsoever from their side that indicates reciprocity. It looks to me that they are quite content with engaging in perpetual theatrics with no end in sight. And how can a meaningful dialogue take place if one side refuses to recognize as legitimate arguments to the contrary?
Posted by STEVED00
Member since May 2007
22392 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:20 am to
Well for starters, I don't think and honest look at the inequality #s fits the narrative many are looking for.
Posted by Stingray
Shreveport
Member since Sep 2007
12421 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:21 am to
quote:

It looks to me that they are quite content with engaging in perpetual theatrics with no end in sight.


They are trying to motivate the black vote.
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
134887 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:21 am to
Cliffs?
Posted by JOJO Hammer
Member since Nov 2010
11926 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:24 am to
The problem is the players don't know why they are protesting.
Posted by BamaAtl
South of North
Member since Dec 2009
21938 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:24 am to
quote:

I don't think and honest look at the inequality #s fits the narrative many are looking for.


Why not? Pretty disproportionate rate of black men being killed by police.
Posted by EKG
Houston, TX
Member since Jun 2010
44041 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:24 am to
Ding ding ding.
Winner.
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
16927 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:25 am to
quote:

Cliffs?


Do the protesters and their supporters actually want to have an honest conversation about the "issues" motivating the kneelers as they say, which means listening to counter arguments and defending their claims? I contend that they don't and that this issue is completely unresolvable as a result.
Posted by el Gaucho
He/They
Member since Dec 2010
53121 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:25 am to
I didn't read all that shite but I've always felt like the owners could pay the players like 200k and get the same results. The players only other option is to go back to bogalusa and pour concrete for a living or whatever
Posted by Stingray
Shreveport
Member since Sep 2007
12421 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:26 am to
quote:

Pretty disproportionate rate of black men being killed by police.


And that number is the only number to need?

And the reason for that number is then proven?
Posted by Honest Tune
Louisiana
Member since Dec 2011
15807 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:27 am to
Pretty distant second to the rate of black bros killing other black bros over imaginary street boundaries. It's human nature to blame others though, when you aren't taught any better than they are.
Posted by BamaAtl
South of North
Member since Dec 2009
21938 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:27 am to
quote:

And that number is the only number to need?



What number(s) do you think counter that fact?
Posted by Klark Kent
Houston via BR
Member since Jan 2008
67051 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:27 am to
ever seen a kid in the grocery store crying because Mom wouldn't get them a toy or a candy bar? It's easier and the first reaction of a child to throw a hissy fit, rather than making a counter argument for herself/himself on why they deserve the candy bar or toy. same thing, just liberal adults.

examples in professional sports, since this is the topic:
All NFL players kneeling for an unknown reason / Warriors refusing trip to White House.
vs
The Golden State Warriors using the trip to the White House to have an adult conversation with the President on what they care about and how things can improve.
This post was edited on 9/26/17 at 11:31 am
Posted by moneyg
Member since Jun 2006
56694 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:27 am to
quote:

Instead of talking about the flag why aren't we talking about the issue behind the protest



You don't get to intentionally disrespect a sacred institution for the purpose of getting attention...and then complain when those who are offended don't listen to your issue.

It's that simple. The protest was laughably misdirected. It was a scorched earth approach that was intentional. People are rightfully pissed.

Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
423392 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:27 am to
quote:

They operate on the premise that their position is fundamentally true and undeniable and that anyone who disagrees is doing so dishonestly in an effort to maintain a system of "oppression" and "murder" of blacks by police due to support for systematic racism.

well even if they're right, their proposed solutions (if any) are batshit crazy and don't address the actual structural issues causing the inequalities they are seeing.

quote:

If they want to have a conversation, they have to be able to recognize that their premise is not universally accepted nor is it legitimately proven. They also have to be willing to accept counterarguments that make them uncomfortable as well.

well they won't do that b/c of the structure of their beliefs/arguments

like you said, any counter will be spun as being a tentacle of oppression
Posted by Klark Kent
Houston via BR
Member since Jan 2008
67051 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:28 am to
preach.
Posted by memphis tiger
Memphis, TN
Member since Feb 2006
20720 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:29 am to
I'm no fan of the cops and think a lot of this they brought on themselves.

BUT....

To have an honest talk about the issue behind the protest might force people on one side to openly and honestly talk about other issues that they'd prefer swept under the rug (i.e. national crime statistics, generation of fatherless children, devaluing education in certain populations etc).
Posted by Vacherie Saint
Member since Aug 2015
39575 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:29 am to
quote:

Why not? Pretty disproportionate rate of black men committing crime.
Posted by lsucoonass
shreveport and east texas
Member since Nov 2003
68487 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:30 am to
of course they do they are celebrities and millionaires
they know better than us people that actually work for a living.

all kidding aside, if all of these people that have knelt and protested this "injustice". why aren't some of them trying to strategize ways to fix this. i know a few go to the urban communities and i applaud them for that.

but if all of these athletes have the financial means to make change then all of them need interact with community leaders, law enforcement agencies, legislature, school officials, etc.

Posted by Tchefuncte Tiger
Bat'n Rudge
Member since Oct 2004
57348 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:31 am to
No. They want to be seen as victims, en perpetuum.
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