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If You Shoot a Criminal, Should You Render First Aid ?

Posted on 4/14/20 at 2:53 pm
Posted by dawg23
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Jul 2011
5065 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 2:53 pm
Today's blog post by Greg Ellifritz is one that I haven't seen mentioned here in a long time. I don't think his advice is controversial (it's the same I've heard in every defensive handgun class I've taken), but he does his usual excellent job of explaining why.

I'm pasting Greg's comments as "quotes."

Ellifritz Blog

quote:

I had an interesting question posed to me by a student in the Systems Collapse Medical Class I taught in Virginia. He asked me:

“If I have to shoot a criminal in a gunfight, should I provide first aid before the paramedics arrive?”

It’s a good question. I’m probably going to ruffle a few feathers with my answer, but I maintain that an armed citizen SHOULD NOT approach a suspect he just shot in order to provide first aid.

It’s simply too dangerous. The criminal may be “playing dead” in order to lure you closer so that he can continue his attack. It might be a ruse so that the criminal can take your own gun away from you. Even if the criminal’s weapon is out of his reach, there’s nothing to prevent him from drawing a second gun or knife. We know serious predators often carry more than one weapon on their person when the commit their crimes.

If you’ve ever taken a first aid class of any type, one of the first things you learned was to do a scene safety assessment. From the Red Cross’ website instructions for performing first aid:

“Step One:
Before administering care to an ill or injured person, check the scene and the person. Size up the scene and form an initial impression.

Pause and look at the scene and the person before responding. Answer the following questions:

– Is the scene safe to enter?

– What happened?

– How many people are involved?

– What is my initial impression about the nature of the person’s illness or injury? Does the person have any life-threatening conditions, such as severe, life-threatening bleeding?

– Is anyone else available to help?”

The very first question to answer is “Is the scene safe to enter?” I maintain that entering a scene where the gunman (who just tried to kill you) is laying injured IS NOT SAFE BY ANY METRIC OF EVALUATION.

The primary duty of a first aid responder is to avoid creating even more victims by acting recklessly. Putting hands on a violent criminal who may or may not be trying to lure you to your death is a recipe to do just that.

You simply can’t protect yourself and render aid at the same time. Besides the primary suspect, you may be extremely vulnerable to any of his accomplices while your attention is focused on providing medical attention. It’s a bad idea.

In the event of a defensive shooting, seek cover within view of the downed suspect and keep your weapon trained on him in the event he decides to continue the attack. Call police and tell them that a man has been shot. Request an ambulance. That’s probably the safest course of action you could take that would be judged “reasonable” in a court of law.

If you wish to do more than that, instruct the suspect to lay on his wound, pressing it into the ground to provide direct pressure. If you can toss him a towel or piece of clothing he can use to staunch the bleeding, feel free to do so…but only if you can do it without losing sight of your attacker. Give him verbal instructions about how to stop any serious bleeding he might have. That’s as far as I would go.

Think about it this way: when the cops come to arrest the criminal, they will probably use team tactics and at least one cover officer to make the approach. If I was responding, I’d wait until I had at least one other officer on the scene to cover me before approaching any armed suspect…injured or not. If I don’t feel comfortable enough to put hands on the injured attacker without the assistance of my armed co-workers for backup, you certainly shouldn’t feel safe approaching him alone to provide first aid.

I am a cop and a first aid instructor. I am not a lawyer. As such, you shouldn’t consider this legal advice. I am solely relating how I would handle the situation. I would not approach the attacker I just shot. I don’t think you should either. An armed citizen has no legal duty to provide aid in any circumstance. If you are a cop on duty, you may be required to provide aid. Check your state’s law and any relevant court cases to determine the proper course of action you should take in a similar situation.


TL;DR - Don't try to help the dude you just shot.
Posted by KemoSabe65
70605
Member since Mar 2018
5150 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 2:56 pm to
Hard he l l no from me
Posted by byutgr
Thibodaux
Member since Apr 2005
455 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 2:58 pm to
Well hopefully, if I have kept my cool, and my training kicks in, first aid would do him no good at all anyway.
Posted by jbgleason
Bailed out of BTR to God's Country
Member since Mar 2012
18905 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 2:59 pm to
I agree with him based on the "you are alone with the guy you just shot and it isn't safe" scenario. That being said, if you are in the middle of a WalMart parking lot and there are 20 people around then things change.

If it is clearly safe to approach the suspect, you should always render aid if it is safe. The primary reason, believe it or not, is that when you get sued (you will) it becomes a nice piece of favorable evidence. When the lawyer (or DA) claims you are a bloodthirsty killer, it will be nice to remind them that you applied the tourniquet that saved the guy. That's one of the big reasons you see police providing aid these days.
Posted by choupiquesushi
yaton rouge
Member since Jun 2006
30556 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 3:05 pm to
quote:

Hard he l l no from me

won't be an option or necessary...
Posted by unclejhim
Folsom, La.
Member since Nov 2011
3703 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 3:11 pm to
quote:

there are 20 people around then things change.



How so??
Posted by hollowpoint
Texas
Member since Sep 2019
1039 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 3:14 pm to
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/18/21 at 7:42 pm
Posted by Uncs
Member since Aug 2008
3080 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 3:16 pm to
Hard to revive a Bullet to the forehead!
Posted by jdavid1
Member since Jan 2014
2466 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 3:20 pm to
Posted by 3deadtrolls
lafayette
Member since Jan 2014
5703 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 3:21 pm to
I say no because I’m not a trained medical professional. Bloodborne pathogens are definitely going to be a concern with a gunshot wound. Call 911 and let those guys sort it out.
Posted by TigerAxeOK
Where I lay my head is home.
Member since Dec 2016
24822 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 3:23 pm to
Is quickly administering enough new bodily orifices to cause swift euthanasia, considered medical aid?

If I ever have to skin my smoke wagon, it will be because the person opposite of me was trying to end my life. If they failed to do so, I will not fail to return the favor.
Posted by X123F45
Member since Apr 2015
27414 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 3:26 pm to
I've spent my entire life shooting a three shot line.

High 9. Right above the 7. X ring the head.

Heart, bottom of the throat/spine, and eyes.

If he survives that, we've got bigger issues than first aid. Namely I need to find a wooden stake for his heart.
This post was edited on 4/14/20 at 4:13 pm
Posted by biglego
Ask your mom where I been
Member since Nov 2007
76330 posts
Posted on 4/14/20 at 11:41 pm to
quote:

It’s simply too dangerous. The criminal may be “playing dead” in order to lure you closer so that he can continue his attack.


Well then shoot him again. Then you can safely render first aid.
Posted by The Pirate King
Pangu
Member since May 2014
57698 posts
Posted on 4/15/20 at 2:20 am to
I’d help a rabid dog brush his teeth before i would administer first aid to a criminal I just shot.
Posted by dawg23
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Jul 2011
5065 posts
Posted on 4/15/20 at 10:37 am to
quote:

The primary reason, believe it or not, is that when you get sued (you will) it becomes a nice piece of favorable evidence. When the lawyer (or DA) claims you are a bloodthirsty killer, it will be nice to remind them that you applied the tourniquet that saved the guy. That's one of the big reasons you see police providing aid these days.

IANAL - maybe one will chime in. But based on the following, your suggestion that a lawsuit is an inevitable outcome doesn't ring true.

LINK
Louisiana Revised Statutes
quote:

§2800.19. Limitation of liability for use of force in defense of certain crimes

A.. A person who uses reasonable and apparently necessary or deadly force or violence for the purpose of preventing a forcible offense against the person or his property in accordance with R.S. 14:19 or 20 is immune from civil action for the use of reasonable and apparently necessary or deadly force or violence.

B. The court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses to the defendant in any civil action if the court finds that the defendant is immune from suit in accordance with Subsection A of this Section.


Posted by CheEngineer
Louisiana
Member since Aug 2019
4234 posts
Posted on 4/15/20 at 10:04 pm to
Yeah if shite got bad enough that I had to shoot you I sure ain’t doing you any favors for giving me that life experience. Like others have said dead men tell no tales and you don’t have to look over your shoulder for the rest of your life when the sob you saved gets out of prison in 5-10 years looking to settle up.
This post was edited on 4/15/20 at 10:05 pm
Posted by WMTigerFAN
Ouachita
Member since Feb 2005
4469 posts
Posted on 4/16/20 at 6:35 am to
I would probably try to move him where he won't get blood, etc all over my floor. Not going to be very sympathetic to someone who forcibly breaks into my house, especially if he's armed.
Posted by HailToTheChiz
Back in Auburn
Member since Aug 2010
48953 posts
Posted on 4/16/20 at 6:53 am to
quote:

The primary reason, believe it or not, is that when you get sued (you will) it becomes a nice piece of favorable evidence.


But if he dies, there is no testimony from him to combat anything
Posted by Lonnie Utah
Utah!
Member since Jul 2012
23972 posts
Posted on 4/16/20 at 7:02 am to


I once heard a LEO say, "If you're going to use deadly force, make sure it's deadly. Dead men tell no tales."
Posted by Sidicous
Middle of Nowhere
Member since Aug 2015
17174 posts
Posted on 4/16/20 at 7:38 am to
Social distancing is the new norm now so I will adhere to JBE and CDC recommendations in such a situation.
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