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Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:13 pm to salty1
quote:
They shouldn’t be ashamed that their grandfathers fought bravely and ultimately lost to the Allies.
If my grandfather was responsible for the Jewish genocide I would be pretty ashamed of it - and for good reason.
The shame they carry has nothing to do with bravery and everything to do with ideology.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:19 pm to salty1
quote:
t’s silly to pretend that the war didn’t happen.
They don't, they just don't romanticize it and recognize it for the dark stain on their history that it is.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:20 pm to CivilTiger83
quote:
If my grandfather was responsible for the Jewish genocide I would be pretty ashamed of it - and for good reason.
The shame they carry has nothing to do with bravery and everything to do with ideology.
You assume that the average German soldier and citizen knew about the genocide. Most, including myself, do not believe that was the case. Yes, they as a society persecuted the jews, but they did so believing the jewish population was largely responsible for their plight prior to WWII. I like to think that the overwhelming majority of German citizens at the time would not have turned a blind eye to the attempted extermination of the jews.
Supposedly, the concentration camps were kept so secret that no one in the Allied nations knew of their existence and it's safe to assume that almost no German citizens or regular army knew of them either.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:29 pm to Tempratt
quote:
They probably are ashamed of Hitler having been from Germany.
Wait... what?
Hitler was from Austria, baw.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:29 pm to salty1
quote:
The German people have basically censored this entire period in their country’s past
quote:
My opinion, it’s silly to pretend that the war didn’t happen
That is far from the truth and it starts in school. Students learn about the atrocities of WW2 in school, year after year after year. Mandartory school trip to visit a concentration camp, of which many are available to visit with plenty of info on the gruesome past. The time period is not censored and besides school, you just won't be reminded of it day in day out with public reminders on every corner. Memorabilia and showing pride towards it is censored.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:30 pm to Fat Harry
quote:
WWI, nothing to be ashamed of at all.
People always act like the Germans weren’t huge pieces of shite and definitely the bad guys in WWI but they were.
*See Rape of Belgium
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:32 pm to salty1
quote:
Supposedly, the concentration camps were kept so secret that no one in the Allied nations knew of their existence and it's safe to assume that almost no German citizens or regular army knew of them either.
This. Outside of those directly involved with the camps, only high-level SS men and those involved with the Final Solution knew of their existence.
The modern day scope of social media and news makes us underestimate just how powerful the Nazi propaganda machine was back in the day. For as evil as Goebbels was, the man was an utter genius and the should be considered the pioneer of fake news.
There's a reason why Eisenhower had German citizens tour and clean up the camps. Nobody knew.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:36 pm to salty1
quote:
You assume that the average German soldier and citizen knew about the genocide. Most, including myself, do not believe that was the case. Yes, they as a society persecuted the jews, but they did so believing the jewish population was largely responsible for their plight prior to WWII. I like to think that the overwhelming majority of German citizens at the time would not have turned a blind eye to the attempted extermination of the jews.
Ther average German soldier was aware they were invading countries for no reason and their government was rounding up Jews for something.
Realistically some got caught up in national pride and some Got drafted. And they didn’t All
Commit war crimes but they were fighting in a war of aggression and they were openly brutal to a lot of civilian populations
Also: believing the Jews were responsible for their economic plight is not an excuse.
They were fully aware their jewish neighbors were forcefully removed from their homes.
This post was edited on 3/4/20 at 12:46 pm
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:39 pm to salty1
quote:
You assume that the average German soldier and citizen knew about the genocide. Most, including myself, do not believe that was the case. Yes, they as a society persecuted the jews, but they did so believing the jewish population was largely responsible for their plight prior to WWII. I like to think that the overwhelming majority of German citizens at the time would not have turned a blind eye to the attempted extermination of the jews.
Supposedly, the concentration camps were kept so secret that no one in the Allied nations knew of their existence and it's safe to assume that almost no German citizens or regular army knew of them either.
So you believe that several million Jews were forced to wear bands to identify they were subhuman, rounded off and sent of to camps and people had no idea that something bad might be happening to the Jews? While their leader was vocal about Jewish extermination? At the very least the fact that the population accepted Jews being made to wear a mark and sent off to camps alone makes it a dark stain on their history.
And the Japanese camps in the US were a stain on the US as well, but don't compare to what the Germans did.
When I hear from someone that tries to explain how it wasn't really that bad or the German people were ignorant of the whole thing - I know that person is either willingly ignorant or has some kind of other agenda they are bringing to the table.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:39 pm to SammyTiger
Yeah, I was reading a memoir of a German soldier and he takes about seeing train loads of bodies in 42 and he mentions that he saw soviet soldiers executed by tying a group of them to gesture and dropping a live grenade into one of their pockets. The German infantry knew there was bad stuff going on their side
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:44 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
..was aware they were invading countries for no reason
Hell, I'm guilty of this a time or two myself.
The average German soldier had no stake in the politics of the day. Similar to how the average US soldier is asked to put aside their personal political beliefs and simply follow lawful orders. I'm certain that most German infantry soldiers would have preferred to be anywhere else besides the eastern and western fronts.
As it relates to the jews, I believe most thought they were just being expelled from German held territory or sent temporarily to internment camps, not being sent to death camps.
ETA: And I'm not making excuses for the evils committed by the nazis or saying the average German is completely without fault as it relates to the jews. My point is that the average German citizen and soldier was vastly removed from the operational support or even knowledge of the concentration camps. Again, how long were allied troops on the ground before the first concentration camp was discovered...three years?
This post was edited on 3/4/20 at 12:49 pm
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:45 pm to VolsOut4Harambe
quote:
This. Outside of those directly involved with the camps, only high-level SS men and those involved with the Final Solution knew of their existence.
Incorrect.
LINK
quote:
The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust, according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand.
They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:47 pm to salty1
quote:
front line troops were just following orders..
Aw the Nuremberg defense to actually defend those from Nuremberg. Bold strategy.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 12:49 pm to salty1
quote:
The average German soldier had no stake in the politics of the day. Similar to how the average US soldier is asked to put aside their personal political beliefs and simply follow lawful orders. I'm certain that most German infantry soldiers would have preferred to be anywhere else besides the eastern and western fronts.
I think You can make a case an average soldier just fighting in the western front, Especially a drafted one, isn’t all that horrible.
That being said a lot of what they were being ordered to do was horrible and I probably Wouldn’t want to brag about how brave my grandfather was taking over Belgium.
quote:
As it relates to the jews, I believe most thought they were just being expelled from German held territory or sent temporarily to internment camps, not being sent to death camps.
The best explanation isn’t great. Idk how you’re supposed to pretend you had no idea nothing bad was going to happen.
Where were they supposed to be being expelled to? Germany was actively taking over the world.
This post was edited on 3/4/20 at 12:52 pm
Posted on 3/4/20 at 1:09 pm to CivilTiger83
The idea that "ordinary Germans and soldiers" did not know of the existence & extent of the Holocaust has been disproved several times over, by factual documentation. Camp guards home on leave brought back photos and stories about what was happening in the camps. Citizens living around the camps certainly knew what was going on & they would talk. The train engineers knew & would talk. German citizens working for I.G.Farben, et al. around the camps, using camp slave labors, knew. When train loads full of 10000's of Jewish clothes & shoes were handed out to citizens around the country, they knew. And the Wehrmacht knew as it's been well documented that the common German soldiers committed their share of atrocities. Having said this, I agree, today's German citizens have no reason to feel guilt to the extent they do.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 1:14 pm to BRgetthenet
quote:Uh, killed a frick ton of innocent people? I guess you're trolling though.
What did they do?
Posted on 3/4/20 at 1:16 pm to Keltic Tiger
quote:
Citizens living around the camps certainly knew what was going on & they would talk.
There were no extermination camps in Germany.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 1:26 pm to Number 9 Fan
quote:
The fact that Hitler wasn’t from Germany makes me wonder how he could use German nationalistic pride to do what he did.
Germany, the country we know of today is not that old. It was once a much larger empire and wasn't even called Germany until the late 19th/early 20th century. Historically, Austria and other parts of the countries bordering modern day Germany were all part of the Kingdom of Germany/Prussia and before that the older Holy Roman Empire.
Those people were German ethnically and at that time still identified as much. Today you'd probably be unlikely to find a modern Austrian who considers themselves Germanic, mostly due to how WW2 turned out.
At the time of Hitler, people rallied to him because he was Germanic. He wanted to restore the glory of the old Kingdom/Empire in their eyes.
This post was edited on 3/4/20 at 1:31 pm
Posted on 3/4/20 at 1:48 pm to salty1
I wouldn’t be ashamed.
But if I knew I had great-grandparents or any elder family members involved (on the bad side), then I would be.
But if I knew I had great-grandparents or any elder family members involved (on the bad side), then I would be.
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