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Posted on 3/4/20 at 1:55 pm to Mo Jeaux
That there were no extermination camps in Germany is a fact. But certainly the Poles knew & there was 10000's of Poles sent to Germany as slave labor; they talked & word did get around as noted by many Poles post war. Read the well, factually documented story on Ravensbruck, Hitler's death camp for women. The huge German factory Seimens was administered by German engineers, secretaries, scientists, and was built & located adjacent to the camp.10000's were murdered there,including by use of gas chambers. Those workers talked back home.And the large majority of photos of the mass murders in all the caps were taken by SS camp guards & brought home.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 1:58 pm to Lou Pai
quote:
A friend of mine from there (millennial age) said 90% of their history curriculum revolves around guilt for the Holocaust
That certainly explains how they justify their draconian laws against speech
Posted on 3/4/20 at 2:08 pm to Modern
quote:
But if I knew I had great-grandparents or any elder family members involved (on the bad side), then I would be.
I had several cousins who died on the eastern front as part of the German army, but also had family on the American side get killed.
While I'm in no way proud of my German ancestors who fought and died, they had no choice but to fight, all dying in Poland and Russia.
This post was edited on 3/4/20 at 2:09 pm
Posted on 3/4/20 at 2:12 pm to salty1
quote:
There are laws against owning items that could be viewed as glorifying the war.
It's not "glorifying the war", it's Nazi memorabilia. There's a big difference. There's a reason why no one cares about Germany's role in WW1. Talking to Germans, they certainly learn about the war in school they aren't censoring it out. They've made a concerted attempt to completely squash the Nazi part of things out of their culture.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 2:15 pm to WHS
quote:
(Germany defeating the U.S. in North Africa before Patton took command)
This is a terrible metaphor.
One little part of one battle isn't a "game" if WWII was the season. That's a 3-and-out - at best.
If anything, the U.S. was Alabama during the war - skipping tough OOC games and the SEC-CG and rolling in for the big game completely refreshed, healthy and sharp.
This post was edited on 3/4/20 at 2:17 pm
Posted on 3/4/20 at 2:17 pm to salty1
From a military standpoint, one can...admire aspects of the Wehrmacht. The Blitzkrieg was a phenomenal tactic that worked magnificently. (And was actually invented by a Brit after the Great War, but the high command dismissed him.)
NASA? Nazis sent us to the moon. Werner Von Braun’s V2 rocket program was revolutionary. That’s why we scooped up every German Scientist we could in operation Paperclip. (Great read)
The Wolfpack tactics of the Kriegsmarine were fascinating. Germany had some of the top generals and strategic minds. Prussian martial spirit with German precision. Rommel is a fascinating character and indeed a great general.
If you haven’t listened to Dan Carlin’s Wrath of the Khans, do so. He opens up with the premise that one day the Germans in WW2 will be written about like the Romans under Caesar, or the Mongols under the Khans.
History is a bloody slog of monsters. We stand on the backs of rapers and reavers, killers and thieves.
EVERY SOCIETY that lasted.
NASA? Nazis sent us to the moon. Werner Von Braun’s V2 rocket program was revolutionary. That’s why we scooped up every German Scientist we could in operation Paperclip. (Great read)
The Wolfpack tactics of the Kriegsmarine were fascinating. Germany had some of the top generals and strategic minds. Prussian martial spirit with German precision. Rommel is a fascinating character and indeed a great general.
If you haven’t listened to Dan Carlin’s Wrath of the Khans, do so. He opens up with the premise that one day the Germans in WW2 will be written about like the Romans under Caesar, or the Mongols under the Khans.
History is a bloody slog of monsters. We stand on the backs of rapers and reavers, killers and thieves.
EVERY SOCIETY that lasted.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 2:22 pm to MLCLyons
quote:
It's not "glorifying the war", it's Nazi memorabilia. There's a big difference. There's a reason why no one cares about Germany's role in WW1. Talking to Germans, they certainly learn about the war in school they aren't censoring it out. They've made a concerted attempt to completely squash the Nazi part of things out of their culture.
At the same time, it would be pretty fricked up to criminalize someone for possessing their grandfather's military gear
Posted on 3/4/20 at 2:24 pm to athenslife101
quote:
People always act like the Germans weren’t huge pieces of shite and definitely the bad guys in WWI but they were. *See Rape of Belgium
Propaganda mostly. War is ugly, hideous and the meeting of mechanization and militarism surprised most everyone with how horrendous it was,
Listen to Blueprint For Armageddon for a better understanding.
Gavrilo Princip's trigger finger,
Set the world afire,
And the powder keg of nations,
Were cast upon the pyre,
Sacrifices to hungry gods,
Same as the days of yore,
Yet man's mad machinations,
Were cleverer than before,
For musket ball and bayonet,
Usurped by tank and plane,
Machine gun and artillery,
Would drive the men insane,
And casualties from ages past,
Were dwarfed by obscene orders,
Of magnitude, as bodies piled,
And scarcely changed the borders,
As poison gas and submarines,
Claimed lives by sick'ning score,
Still heads of state, looked to their boys,
And brashly called for more,
And thus they came, in pal's brigades,
Lads wet behind the ears,
Leaving behind their mothers,
Who silent cried their tears,
And thrust into the gaping maw,
Of that great beast, mere fodder,
They'd bravely charge over the top,
In constant, senseless slaughter,
But filled with breathless bravado,
This post and that were taken,
The cost? Mere generations,
Of men in mud forsaken,
Until one side claimed victory,
And from the ramparts swore,
It was fought for necessity,
This "War to End All Wars"
Yet all who've glimpsed a bonfire,
And seen it 'till the end,
Know ashes conceal embers,
Which are wont to flame again,
And so amidst the rotten wreck,
The smoke once more arose,
And lit the fuel that festered,
Underneath punitive blows,
Again the fact'ries flared to life,
All belching death and blood,
Like echoes from the times before,
That hell on cursed mud,
From the ruins of toppled empires,
New cozened killers sprang,
And church bells not yet melted,
Once more to muster rang,
Appeasement first, then blitzkrieg,
The veterans returned,
To modern murd'ring madness,
As once more cities burned,
And boys were called again to fight,
The wars of priv'ledged men,
And die by tens of thousands,
To meet that bravest end,
But more than most admit fell prey,
To that war's wicked curse,
And unimagined horrors lay,
Before them, and far worse,
When finally the carnage ceased,
In an atomic quiet,
The world lay shattered once again,
And no man can deny it,
Unending rows of tombstones,
And sons who never grew,
The prize for "World War 2"
Posted on 3/4/20 at 2:52 pm to salty1
I'm not ashamed of slavery. It happened, I had nothing to do with it.
Why should they be? They are resilient people who bounced back twice.
Why should they be? They are resilient people who bounced back twice.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 2:54 pm to Keltic Tiger
Sir Winston and FDR knew about the extermination camps in the early part of 1942. Fact!
Posted on 3/4/20 at 2:59 pm to red sox fan 13
quote:
What happened is what happened. History is history. Maybe the Nazis should not be celebrated but they shouldn't be censored. On the other hand, they definitely should not be held up as heroes and deny everything bad they did like in Japan. I think people can be proud of their grandfathers in Germany if they were regular honorable soldiers serving their country. If they served in SS, maybe not though.
What happened is what happened. History is history. Maybe the Clintons and Obamas should not be celebrated but they shouldn't be censored. On the other hand, they definitely should not be held up as heroes and deny everything bad they did like in Arkansas, Washington DC or Benghazi. I think people can be proud of their fellow Democrats in Washington DC if they were regular honorable liberals serving their country. If they served under Barak or Hillary, maybe not though.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 3:20 pm to red sox fan 13
quote:
What happened is what happened. History is history. Maybe the Nazis should not be celebrated but they shouldn't be censored. On the other hand, they definitely should not be held up as heroes and deny everything bad they did like in Japan. I think people can be proud of their grandfathers in Germany if they were regular honorable soldiers serving their country. If they served in SS, maybe not though.
My sentiments exactly.
And I should have a biased opinion if anything, given that my Pop is American and my mother German.
My mom's real father was part of a Tiger crew in the First Panzer (Wermacht)and was killed in 1943 at Kursk. While he was proud to be a German, the family, as a whole, despised the Nazi's.
But if you said anything about it you were shot.
In the waning weeks of the war the SS showed up at their doorstep and "recruited" my mom's twelve year old brother, the eldest child, for the Wermacht. My grandmother attempted to stop them from taking him and was told either he goes or they shoot the other three children, including my mother, who was a ripe old six yrs old at the time.
That was the reality of the Nazi's power over the normal German people of the time.
Ironic that she wound up marrying my Pop, as he was a U.S. Army tank commander when they met years later.
This post was edited on 3/4/20 at 3:30 pm
Posted on 3/4/20 at 3:28 pm to athenslife101
quote:
People always act like the Germans weren’t huge pieces of shite and definitely the bad guys in WWI but they were.
That's a mighty broad brush you painting with there chief.
The U.S. Army at My Lai under command of Lt Calley say "hold my beer"
Posted on 3/4/20 at 3:30 pm to CivilTiger83
quote:
At the very least the fact that the population accepted Jews being made to wear a mark and sent off to camps alone makes it a dark stain on their history.
They all just truly believed the Jews wee being sent off to a summer camp like in Dirty Dancing
Posted on 3/4/20 at 3:30 pm to salty1
of course
Posted on 3/4/20 at 3:41 pm to salty1
I don’t think people should be made to feel ashamed of the sins of their fathers, grandfathers or older, if even their ancestors had anything to do with evil doings in the first place and weren’t harboring Jews for example.
All any of us can do is answer for ourselves and our own actions, and that’s quite enough as it is without adding to the burden. This shite isn’t retroactive justice. You learn from it. You forgive, and you move on, something this country cannot seam to do, being constantly glued to first fricking base. Some people do not benefit from moving past old sins.
All any of us can do is answer for ourselves and our own actions, and that’s quite enough as it is without adding to the burden. This shite isn’t retroactive justice. You learn from it. You forgive, and you move on, something this country cannot seam to do, being constantly glued to first fricking base. Some people do not benefit from moving past old sins.
Posted on 3/4/20 at 3:56 pm to Mike da Tigah
We are all descended from men who may have done bad things in their lives, especially in the setting of war. But the sons are not responsible for the sins of the father
Posted on 3/4/20 at 3:58 pm to Mike da Tigah
Well said sir
Posted on 3/4/20 at 4:01 pm to salty1
Why not? I’m ashamed of you.
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