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Message
re: Serious Conversation about lesbian/gays (allowed) in church
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:35 pm to Pettifogger
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:35 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
But as for attendance, it never made sense to me why some evangelicals treat homosexuality so differently than other sins. Shunning just seems so counterproductive, especially in such a public manner. This seems like a case of very small minded people being more concerned about what people in the community think of them as individuals instead of what Christianity dictates they should do.
nail... it was hit on the head
0
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:36 pm to oleyeller
No church that claims to be Christian would prevent anyone from coming.
How is this even a question?
How is this even a question?
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:36 pm to Black n Gold
quote:
should have their doors open to everyone, at all times. Judgment should never pass through those doors. Each individual that walks into a church should only be concerned with their "sins" and how they are going to repent for them.
agree
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:36 pm to oleyeller
Several denominations have split over the issue of how to deal with homosexuality particularly as it relates to ordination of clergy and same sex marriage. As Christianity wanes in Europe and many parts of North America, growing Christian numbers in Asia and Africa who tend to be ultra conservative will place even more pressure on large denominations to address how to handle this issue. I'm guessing that there will be more schisms and polarization to come.
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:36 pm to Black n Gold
quote:
Churches should have their doors open to everyone, at all times. Judgment should never pass through those doors. Each individual that walks into a church should only be concerned with their "sins" and how they are going to repent for them.
I don't know that I agree with this concept, although I probably agree with what you're trying to convey. IMO, judgment and telling a sinner (as another sinner) that you know he is sinning and he should stop are different things. The church should be used for the latter at times.
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:36 pm to N2cars
quote:
No church that claims to be Christian would prevent anyone from coming.
How is this even a question?
it obviously is for them.. ridiculous
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:38 pm to AU66
quote:
a gay or Lesbian would be welcomed in but would eventually hear sermons that it is scripturally wrong
Aint it the truth Brother!!!!!!!
Galls me every time I hear our Pastor go on and on about my lying and cheating on my golf game. Then the moment he gets the knife in me he twists it by telling me I can't covet Deacon So-and-so's arse.
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:41 pm to Pettifogger
This.
There's a difference between judging someone and lovingly talking to them as to not enable them. It wouldn't be right to see someone about to touch a stove and not tell them it's hot.
There's a difference between judging someone and lovingly talking to them as to not enable them. It wouldn't be right to see someone about to touch a stove and not tell them it's hot.
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:43 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
I grew up Southern Baptist (membership is still with SBC church even though I mostly attend UMC now). I've never understood this, and never actually seen it in real life. My church was a large SBC and while it could get political, it was neither anti-gay nor fire and brimstone, so a lot of the SBC complaints are ones I never really understood (and I've been to a lot of SBC churches).
Anyway, I understand and respect that membership and attendance are different. Having an openly gay couple join the church is something that I understand may give churches pause. Frankly, it wouldn't bother me that much, but it would provide a weird situation in which I would want to balance tolerance and support for the people without celebrating or even endorsing the lifestyle.
But as for attendance, it never made sense to me why some evangelicals treat homosexuality so differently than other sins. Shunning just seems so counterproductive, especially in such a public manner. This seems like a case of very small minded people being more concerned about what people in the community think of them as individuals instead of what Christianity dictates they should do.
It is popular to paint all Christians with a broad, intolerant brush. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Christian churches welcome all sinners with open arms.
Now, we can't prevent some members from being judgemental, churches are after all, full of people, but the church as a whole, should welcome everyone.
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:43 pm to oleyeller
My wife and I just left our church (for various reasons) and going to start a house church of sorts. We have no idea what it will look like, but we just started finding people in our community that need help. We are focusing mainly on single parents, widows, families with children in need of clothes, food, yard work, etc. We figured we would just start there and see what happens. We do not screen anyone we want to help based on their color, sexual orientation, stance on Christianity, etc. We figure we will just do as Jesus commands and love our neighbors and see what happens. (Along with standing on Scripture as our foundation)
You know that verse when Jesus spoke about the final judgement and some people said they called him Lord, but Jesus said, depart from me, I never knew you? Unfortunately, I think this will be directed at lots of people that are in churches today.
You know that verse when Jesus spoke about the final judgement and some people said they called him Lord, but Jesus said, depart from me, I never knew you? Unfortunately, I think this will be directed at lots of people that are in churches today.
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:43 pm to Mattwells90
Do they close their doors to a couple who is remarried? They are actively practicing sexual immorality and are willing adulterers. Do they allow their bastard children to come into their church?
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:45 pm to oleyeller
God loves everyone...unless you are gay, then you burn in Hell you goddamn heathen.
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:45 pm to MeridianDog
Gotta run, but I'll leave this here...
Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a man caught in homosexuality. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this man was caught in the act of homosexuality. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such man. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at him.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the man still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Man, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” “No one, sir,” he said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a man caught in homosexuality. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this man was caught in the act of homosexuality. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such man. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at him.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the man still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Man, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” “No one, sir,” he said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:46 pm to deaconjones35
quote:
My wife and I just left our church (for various reasons) and going to start a house church of sorts. We have no idea what it will look like, but we just started finding people in our community that need help. We are focusing mainly on single parents, widows, families with children in need of clothes, food, yard work, etc. We figured we would just start there and see what happens. We do not screen anyone we want to help based on their color, sexual orientation, stance on Christianity, etc. We figure we will just do as Jesus commands and love our neighbors and see what happens. (Along with standing on Scripture as our foundation)
You know that verse when Jesus spoke about the final judgement and some people said they called him Lord, but Jesus said, depart from me, I never knew you? Unfortunately, I think this will b
awesome!!! good luck
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:47 pm to Mattwells90
quote:
There's a difference between judging someone and lovingly talking to them as to not enable them. It wouldn't be right to see someone about to touch a stove and not tell them it's hot.
Yeah and admittedly the other poster may have been talking about judging like we're talking about it.
I just see it used so broadly in this context, as if Christians are never supposed to talk to other Christians about their ways. IMO it's fine to adjudge the behavior (with the requisite amount of humility) so long as it doesn't cross into judging the individual. When it's a good idea to do so, and how, are subjective questions.
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:48 pm to deaconjones35
quote:
we just started finding people in our community that need help.
Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary, use words.
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:50 pm to Black n Gold
quote:
Serious Conversation about lesbian/gays (allowed) in church
Gotta run, but I'll leave this here...
Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a man caught in homosexuality. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this man was caught in the act of homosexuality. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such man. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at him.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the man still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Man, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” “No one, sir,” he said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:51 pm to oleyeller
I said something about this in a thread yesterday. I'll edit it and copy it in here. One sec. (Also posting so I can go to my post history to get it)
quote:
I am also trying to break them of age old things the American Church has taught that aren't Biblical. Especially regarding sin and unbelievers. We are told to Love them, and specifically told to NOT judge them. Yet the church has for decades.
For example, the Church should be tthe safest place on earth for a gay couple to walk into while holding hands. We should react with love, hug them, sit with them, show them the love of Christ. Yet every church who doesn't accept gay marriage has members, yes plural. who would ask them to leave. Immediately. That is what I am fighting, and it isn't just homosexuality. The attitude of those tracts has been around for 150 years. It has created an atmosphere in churches that is hyper judgemental. If someone even dares talk about sin they are judged negatively by others. When it shouldn't be a taboo subject. It should be something that is open, that we help others discuss and try to help them move past. Our opinion of someone should not change based on their sin. Our love should be all they receive from us. With those who claim full Faith, such as a pastor, or someone who claims to be sanctified it is a little different.
Large churches, especially non-denominational ones, teach roughly what you described. Their reason being that they are so large that they feel that teaching on something that would be considered a doctrinal issue would drive off members. When in reality all they are doing is creating shallow believers who cannot defend their faith.
Americanism has become intertwined with Christianity, and what it has created is almost a version of Biblical consumerism which taints and twists the message of Christ into something far from the truth. Combine that with the attitude of fundamentalism and legalism from the old guard evangelicals, and you have a recipe for hatred, hurt, and loss. Shallow on one side, hatred and hardline on the other. The rest of us in the middle. It is one reason I like my denomination, Nazarene, because generally my attitude has been growing within it.
I know, I know....tldr.
This post was edited on 3/23/15 at 4:54 pm
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:54 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
Yeah and admittedly the other poster may have been talking about judging like we're talking about it.
I just see it used so broadly in this context, as if Christians are never supposed to talk to other Christians about their ways. IMO it's fine to adjudge the behavior (with the requisite amount of humility) so long as it doesn't cross into judging the individual. When it's a good idea to do so, and how, are subjective questions.
I had a guy beat me of some money on a lease deal. He carried around a Bible and quoted some scripture on occasion. Well, after he screwed me out of the money I told my wife, "eff that guy, he's no Christian " .
Of course, I was wrong. It is not my place (or right) to judge his relationship with God based on his actions.
Valuable lesson learned for me, personally.
Posted on 3/23/15 at 4:57 pm to VaBamaMan
well said
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