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Started By
Message
re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 7/19/23 at 1:29 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
Posted on 7/19/23 at 1:29 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
This is a really good question though. At what point does the West consider it to be a lost cause and a waste of resources?
I think this is certainly a valid question, we just don’t know how close we are to the answer changing. Right now the answer continues to be its effective/worthy of doing.
quote:
So does Russia really suck that bad? Is our equipment really not that good? Or is it that the Ukrainian soldiers are just as shitty as the Russians?
1. Seems like it
2. We’re not sending our best equipment and Ukraine isn’t in a position to use the equipment we’re giving them in it’s most effective operation due to lacking air support.
3. Hardest to tell of the three imo. Seems clear to most that Ukraine isn’t trotting out American marine quality troops but Russian troops seem quite crappy as well. I have no way for myself to value lacking air support vs subpar Ukrainian troops against the results seen.
0
Posted on 7/19/23 at 1:34 pm to Pfft
quote:
If it can kill it is not obsolete.
Guess we should send them all our old crossbows and swords
Posted on 7/19/23 at 1:48 pm to StormyMcMan
Poland has arrested 15 Russian spies that were planning to derail/ blow up aid trains going to Ukraine.
LINK
LINK
Posted on 7/19/23 at 1:49 pm to StormyMcMan
Damn, that's another billion, why not
Posted on 7/19/23 at 2:05 pm to Dr RC
quote:
Their only answer is "Ukraine has to give up more territory, demilitarize, and promise to never join NATO" which is of course completely ridiculous b/c that would mean that Russia will just do this all over again in 5-10 years.
Thank you. That’s it in a nut shell.
Posted on 7/19/23 at 2:20 pm to Hateradedrink
quote:
I have a feeling this is why you haven’t seen UA commit more reserves and western equipment. They wanted to poke and prod to see if they could get lucky and Russia would roll over but that didn’t happen. They may be saving western equipment as a “defense” deterrent to levy in negotiations.
This makes some sense to me. If I’m Ukraine and I know western support could disappear at any time, I’m not slamming useful men and equipment against a wall for no reason.
Ukraine’s future include no guaranty for continued western support, but a near guaranty of continued Russian hostility. They may well need these weapons to fend off a 2024, 2026, 2030, etc Russian offensive
Posted on 7/19/23 at 2:29 pm to StormyMcMan
I’ll hop in the sopwith camel and take ‘em all myself
Posted on 7/19/23 at 2:34 pm to Pfft
quote:
If it can kill it is not obsolete.
Quick, someone pull all the civil war cannons out of the museums.
Posted on 7/19/23 at 2:58 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
This is a really good question though. At what point does the West consider it to be a lost cause and a waste of resources?
Honestly the answer is never. We're too deep in this to take a loss and go home. Whether we like it or not, we'll send Ukraine a trillion in money and gear if that what it takes to break Russia. This is the space race 2.0. We never gave a shite about going to the moon, that was just a good excuse to bleed the soviet Union dry trying to compete with us.
Posted on 7/19/23 at 2:58 pm to DabosDynasty
quote:
Quick, someone pull all the civil war cannons out of the museums.
Go big or go home... Sling-shots!!
Posted on 7/19/23 at 3:03 pm to doubleb
quote:
The Mrs. would not agree, lol
Mine wouldn't either in regards to me
.
Posted on 7/19/23 at 3:06 pm to klrstix
ATACMS related?
Posted on 7/19/23 at 3:08 pm to riverdiver
quote:
Why is the West so hell bent on refusing to negotiate an end to the killing?
We lost the ability to negotiate a truce between Russia and Ukraine when we decided to become active (not kinetically) participants in it on one side. The best we could do is to back out and support a legitimately neutral third party yo handle negotiations
Posted on 7/19/23 at 3:10 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
We’ve sent billions worth of weapons, equipment, training and intelligence to Ukraine to beat an army that is supposedly a paper tiger that has resorted to pulling museum pieces out of storage and recruiting criminals out of prison. Yet the counteroffensive isn’t going well and it doesn’t look like Ukraine is going to make a breakthrough.
It seems like you’ve been suggesting, for some time now, that we should be concerned about the performance of our equipment in this offensive. I get your point about some of these weapons systems being top-tier. I do not, however, think it makes a ton of sense to judge our capabilities based on Ukraine’s performance.
For all of the military support we’ve given Ukraine, it still only represents like 4-5% of our annual defense spending. Our total military aid to Ukraine during this war is comparable to the amount DOD spends on pharmaceuticals in a given year.
Now multiply that discrepancy by the decades of spending that make up our current military capabilities.
For all the talk about lack of air superiority on either side, Ukraine has what - less than 100 MiG-29’s and Su-27’s? What would the skies look like with US 5th-gen fighters (or even 4th-gen fighters with our numbers, training, and logistics)?
Russia has complete control in the Black Sea. Do we have any reason to think that would be the case if we were fighting this war? I realize the US Navy’s presence in the Black Sea has historically been limited because of international politics/treaties, but all that shite goes out the window if the US is involved in a ground war in Europe.
Even with the ground equipment, there’s the sheer numbers difference between what is being donated to Ukraine vs. what is being held back.
I guess my point is that while some of the donated systems may indeed be top-tier, I don’t think that fact makes it reasonable to assume that Ukraine’s success (or lack thereof) is indicative of US/NATO capabilities as a whole.
Posted on 7/19/23 at 3:16 pm to OutsideObserver
quote:
Ukraine, in turn, is also among the most richly endowed European countries when it comes to rare earth metals and lithium reserves, with estimates of the value of these deposits ranging from $3 trillion-$11.5 trillion.
I have lived in Ukraine and even if it makes significant in roads with corruption it will still not be enough. As a someone who lived in Ukraine I will be shocked if they actually make headway with their corruption. Ukraine is less corrupt than Russia but still the level of corruption over there is incomprehensible for ppl in the USA.
Posted on 7/19/23 at 3:18 pm to riverdiver
quote:
You happy with your tax money being wasted?
If this war is the standard of tax money being wasted, there's no meaning to the word.
Very very very very little the government ever spends on, is useful. This is one of those extremely rare circumstances money isn't completely being pissed away to no end, and people bitch about it being cost effective.
IT WOULD BE A BARGAIN AT 5 TIMES THE PRICE.
Jesus. People are dense.
Posted on 7/19/23 at 3:22 pm to lostinbr
Yea but you forgot our military is WOKE
And DC/military officers are all suuuuuper corrupt so our planes probably cant even fly
And DC/military officers are all suuuuuper corrupt so our planes probably cant even fly
Posted on 7/19/23 at 4:51 pm to TigerFanatic99
quote:
This is a really good question though. At what point does the West consider it to be a lost cause and a waste of resources?
Honestly the answer is never. We're too deep in this to take a loss and go home. Whether we like it or not, we'll send Ukraine a trillion in money and gear if that what it takes to break Russia. This is the space race 2.0. We never gave a shite about going to the moon, that was just a good excuse to bleed the soviet Union dry trying to compete with us.
Our money is destroying Russian equipment at a very good rate and weakening a strategic enemy. There's no possible analysis of us spending close to $1 trillion per year on our military that doesn't say that spending a tenth of that to destroy half the conventional forces of Russia isn't an outstanding return on investment.
And that's before we get into the side benefits, such as a much stronger NATO and a revived domestic defense industrial base.
While it would be nice for Ukraine to win, the United States has already won.
Posted on 7/19/23 at 4:56 pm to GOP_Tiger
I mean if we spent $50b each bribing Finland and Sweden to join NATO and nothing else, it would have been worth it lol
This post was edited on 7/19/23 at 4:57 pm
Posted on 7/19/23 at 6:30 pm to GOP_Tiger
Ok y’all sorry but I’ve been nonstop at work and haven’t had time to keep up. I looked and there’s been 30+ pages since I last looked. Really don’t want to read all
that if I dont have to. Can someone give me the CliffsNotes on what’s been happening? I really appreciate it.
that if I dont have to. Can someone give me the CliffsNotes on what’s been happening? I really appreciate it.
This post was edited on 7/19/23 at 6:35 pm
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