re: Is keto best?

No I wasn't disagreeing with you just simply saying it's not optimal for muscle gains nor performance in strength sports.

I have said many times I believe keto/ Paleo are the best diet for overall health. And they are good for cutting.

But they do not cause fat loss at any greater rate than any other diet. Alot of the keto guys like to scream about MA Insulin this and MY insulin this and like to post up all these so called facts about fat loss yet there is not a single study done outside of the fat fast expiermented in the 60s that shows greater fat loss when. Comparing keto to iso caloric when calories are equal and protein is accounted for. Tmit just doesn't work in real life like everyone thinks. Dozens of studies show the opposite and that the only things that really matter for 90% or so to reach their goals are caloric level and protein level combined with consistency.

Sure nutrient timing helps as do other strategies like IF but they matter very little overall.

Yeah it's really hard to weed out the rahrah types from the science.
I start w real doctors like
Peter Attia, Phinney/Volek and their team, etc, and then just sort of enjoy the enthusiasm of the rest with a grain (or 12g per day) of salt.

ETA: when I am training for more serious stuff, I'm finding I can eat a lot more protein and carbs (like 5x+ the "normal" keto limit) and still remain in nutritional ketosis or at least cycle back in quickly and continue running mostly on ketones.

I'm definitely not dogmatic about it, but my thought is, it's a very natural (as in effortless and historically sound) way of eating and is only weird because of the events of the fairly recent past.

But as far as anything magical, I always go back to the 3 step-function changes mankind has experienced, in longevity and health: sanitation, childbirth and germs. Eating well can help, but it isn't a true step change. I do think, however, that eating poorly can pretty well erode the benefits of the previous three in a lot of people.

T2D, CVD and obesity are the standard-bearers of that theory.

I qualify those statements because the fat fast expierment doesn't have a tone of data on it, was sub 1000 calories, and was done 40 years ago.

As far as the rest you highlighted, that's what a study test. It test when caloric levels are the same and protein is high enough to maintain muscle. That's not qualifiers that's basic science and common sense.

And I have said many times keto is a great diet for those looking for weight loss or maintaining current body composition. And yes people have effortless weight loss for a long time on keto and let's talk about why.

They have weight loss because keto forces you to eat whole foods that are very full filling. So people eat less overall calories. It is not, at least according to any evidence or any scientific study, due to "MAA Insulin". Over a dozens studies prove this. There is not one single study done in the last 25 years that shows otherwise.

Same thing with IF, just had a study come out on 5:2 fasting that showed of weekly calories are equal, weight loss is the same regardless of how or when it is taken in. Now that study did show that like with keto, specific diets tend to cause fat loss from different areas that differ from a basic isocaloric diet.

With all that being said, I do believe a basic fat loss regiment that consist of an hour of walking a day and lifting weights in a progressive manner with the basic compound lifts combined with a diet of 3 or 4 meals consisting of

2 palms full of the meat of their choice or 4 whole eggs
Two palms full of veggies

Eat this three times a day with a 40g protein shake and most people will do very well for a long time. After 3 or 4 weeks one can add one palm full of a whole food carb source at lunch on lifting days.

I do believe when it comes to fat loss science is somewhat behind but I believe it's behind in the fact that we can't figure out why keto, IF and carb cycling tend to cause fat loss from areas that are low in beta receptors much faster than an iso caloric diet. We are easily able to detect how much and from where the fat loss is occurring, it's the matter of why that the scientific community can not answer yet.

I have no problem with you junky or many others but I do have an issue with people like scrub who make statements like keto is the best diet for performance and best diet for gaining muscle. When he doesn't even lift heavy weights and has no clue what is the best. Annoys the piss out of me because it is complete bullshite. Carbs are needed to gain muscle optimally. All you have to do is look up the science surrounding activation of mtor. All you have to do is look and see what science says about which macro is easiest to store as body fat and which is hardest to store when in a caloric surplus.

This isn't complicated, people just try to make it. Just like the statement that fruit is bad for you and is making you fat that I have seen some others make.


I am all for people doing the diet that makes you happy. I prefer a lower carb approach my self cause I love meat and carbs tend to make my stomach hurt, but the attitude some have that keto is the best for everything despite all the scientific evidence showing it's not true, is astounding and frankly it's annoying as shite. Keto more than has it's place and it is a great tool, but it is just that, a tool not the end all be all best everything because of "MA insulin"

Question for you 777, since you seem to keep up with the science more than I do.

Are there good isocaloric studies around that display consistent weight loss when there's insulin resistance and/or other metabolic disorders, such as under/overactive thyroid?

I ask this because I am seeing success with weight loss again since I went see this dietitian who lowered my carbs, limited my carb sources, and trying to better regulate insulin spiking throughout the day. I am eating 2400 cals/day on a 25%c/25%p/50%f diet and seeing around 1lb/week of weight loss and losing around 1/2 - 1 inch of size loss in various parts of my body every 2 weeks. she's also got me taking a super probiotic with 450b bacteria of various cultures and I've been focusing on getting more natural probiotics in my diet, primarily kimchi, sourkraut, and kombucha.. The success I'm seeing is making me rethink my stance a bit on diet, in particular when considering those with metabolic disorders.

Or is it simply a case of simplifying my diet means I'm just tracking much more accurately?

i can't say for sure. but obviously you are tracking and being much more strict. and i have said before if you have a metabolic disorder you may need to go on a certain type of diet. But metabolic disorders are not as common as you might think.

as far as studies I am not aware of any. i can look though.

I personally think food quality can make a difference and have said so myself, but it makes the difference imo in how you feel, amount of inflamation in your body etc. if you feel better you are more likely to increase non exercise physical activity etc. could be a number of combinations.

now in your case I can say this, you tended to cheat a lot. pretty much every weekend you were talking about how you fell off the wagon, or how you had an activity coming up and you were not going to stay strict etc. Stopping this and being held accountable is prolly a big key to your success. also I have scene you in the past have success for a long time when you were tracking consistently. SO you having success at the beginning is nothing new to you.


please do not take this as an insult because it was not. I am simply stating what I have scene. honestly the biggest thing with anyone is consistency.

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Hulkklogan

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I may be interested in this person for someone, can you share information on her?

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For some its effortless and for others it may take a ton of effort. I don't know why you can't understand that. I just like leaner meats in general than fatty meats and I'm not huge on cheeses or cream. For me to eat Keto I would have to sacrifice things I like and eat more of things that I really don't. It's really not that complicated.

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Yeah I can't imagine a diet centered around things that you hate being very sustainable

I might be able to lose faster on keto but I'm not willing to commit to it because it's too restrictive

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now in your case I can say this, you tended to cheat a lot. pretty much every weekend you were talking about how you fell off the wagon, or how you had an activity coming up and you were not going to stay strict etc. Stopping this and being held accountable is prolly a big key to your success. also I have scene you in the past have success for a long time when you were tracking consistently. SO you having success at the beginning is nothing new to you.


please do not take this as an insult because it was not. I am simply stating what I have scene. honestly the biggest thing with anyone is consistency.

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No offense taken. I actually agree with you. Even though I would track the 'cheats' and eating out, it's tough to be accurate and consistent when eating out.

A great help to me has been to weigh less often.. Just let the process work and check in every couple of weeks. I haven't gotten so frustrated.. I just eat what I'm supposed to and let it happen. I also feel better.. less bloat, more mental clarity.. And a better mental attitude.

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I may be interested in this person for someone, can you share information on her?

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Just look up the Metabolic Spectrum Center. It's inside BR General Health & Wellness Center.. They have several dietitians there. I see Rachel Punch. She also happens to specialize in sports nutrition, which is cool for the long-term.. she can help me with my weight loss goals, then when I get there help me with muscle gain and performance in my workouts.

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I might be able to lose faster on keto but I'm not willing to commit to it because it's too restrictive

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This statement right here never sits well with me. Too restrictive. No it isn't, most people are addicted nutrient poor foods.

You could literally stuff yourself as much as you could of the foods below and be perfectly fine but damnit if I can't have my sugar crutch.











Dang, now my mouth is watering. Probably from some primal instinct to consume meat...