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Message
re: Pope Denounces ‘Hypocrisy’ of Those Who Criticize LGBT Blessings
Posted on 2/11/24 at 4:06 pm to 4cubbies
Posted on 2/11/24 at 4:06 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Every cuss word or unkind word spoken is open sin.
I’m not a religious person but I think you are wrong.
If saying frick when I stub my toe is a sin, well I’ll enjoy my time in hell. I cursed, but not directed at anyone.
1
Posted on 2/11/24 at 4:14 pm to Houag80
quote:
Several are seriously considering leaving the Catholic church for an alternative.
Been there, done that
Posted on 2/11/24 at 4:18 pm to SaintInBham
It's called Our Father not My Father! His blood was shed for all. He is the God for all!
Posted on 2/11/24 at 4:19 pm to dgnx6
quote:
I’m not a religious person but I think you are wrong.
Look, I struggle with this, too. I’m working on it but I definitely have a habit of cussing.
Ephesians 4:29 tells us, "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen." First Peter 3:10 declares, "For, whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech." James 3:9-12 summarizes the issue: "With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water."
Posted on 2/11/24 at 4:29 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
The Church certainly never blessed crooked business dealings and only a muddled thinker would suggest otherwise. Yet muddled thinking seems to be the modus operandi of this Jesuit Pope. I’m tired of seeing Catholics defend these pronouncements which border on apostasy. Instead of bringing clarity and light to matters of Catholic doctrine, Pope Frances sows confusion and creates scandal.
I agree. And I saw it coming when I left the church after smelling the scent of communism in 1985 and it became a strong odor in 1990.
But Catholic history is fascinating stuff.
Posted on 2/11/24 at 4:41 pm to dgnx6
quote:
The Catholic Church talking about crooked businessmen is rich.
No kidding.
The hypocrisy emanating from the Vatican beggars belief.
God will not be mocked and in the fullness of time we can rest assured that the utter corruption in Rome will be fully revealed.
Posted on 2/11/24 at 6:14 pm to CatholicLSUDude
quote:
Gah you guys aren't even trying. GO READ THE DOCUMENT. They have come out and clarified multiple times, but the document clearly says it's not blessing the union, it's blessing the people.
Then two weeks ago, the Pope came out and said it again just to make sure the point was clear:
Pope Francis: Bless the persons, not the union
Thing is, no one reports it. And none of the irrational Catholic-hating people on this board care to actually read anything except the BS gossip.
The Pope can say whatever he wants but what do his actions show?
When a priest chooses to blatantly defy what the Pope says and in fact is blessing the union: Rev. Jan Korditschke decided to hold blessings for LGBTQ+ couples in Berlin “because the love of homosexuals is something good.
“I stand behind what I am doing, though it is painful for me that I cannot do it in tune with the church leadership,” Korditschke, who works for the city’s Jesuit diocese. LINK
Surely this priest would be pastorally corrected, as even he acknowledges his actions are not in tune with church leadership, despite the vow of obedience he took? Well no, apparently not because this priest has been saying these things for at least 3 years now and he’s still a chaplain and teacher at a Catholic spiritual retreat center.
There’s also this woman, Theresia Härtel, a sexologist and pastoral worker in the Berlin area. Härtel serves as the contact for queer-sensitive pastoral care within Bernhard Lichtenberg, the parish that Herz Jesu is within.
Härtel wears her passion for sex education on her ears, in the form of clay earrings in the shape of an anatomically correct vulva, swinging as she bustles through the church’s courtyard, greeting nearly every person that passes by.
In addition to her queer-sensitive pastoral work, Härtel leads a youth group at the Herz Jesu church. LINK
The Pope does not have to allow this, the church has a hierarchy and its clergy take vows of obedience. These people are flagrantly disobeying Church doctrine while proudly giving interviews and posing for pictures at their Church-owned offices. Are the clergy defrocked? Lay people fired? Are we to assume Pope Francis does not know about the statements and actions of these people, despite clear evidence that he is aware?
Posted on 2/11/24 at 7:22 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
bringing clarity and light to matters of Catholic doctrine,
Here is your "clarity and light" WRT "matters of Catholic doctrine": The Catechism.
Absolutely nothing the Pope says changes the Catechism.
LINK /
Posted on 2/11/24 at 7:30 pm to Snipe
quote:
I do not understand Gods plan for this new Pope but I trust Gods plan. I know for sure that this new progressivism and push by the left to further interject anti morality into human life is satans plan to separate Gods people from His grace and love. I have criticized the Catholic Church and still don’t understand why certain things are the way they are. But I do know it’s all Gods plan and that’s never wrong. Does it mean God has evolved and changed his opinion about homosexuality and other deviant lifestyle? Absolutely not. But what it has done is cause a lot of people especially Christians to seek Gods truth on the subject and reinforcing their faith. So even though I can be confused about some things in the Church and maybe not agree with them to my understanding. I can return to one Apostolic Catholic Church and serve God and be in communion with Him.
If you can overlook the bloody and corrupt history of the Catholic church, surely you can overlook this communist progressive pope.
Posted on 2/11/24 at 7:33 pm to LSUA 75
You might have time to do as I did, which was to take a year or two to study the Theology and history of the various Christian denominations.
You might return to the RCC, if your study is open-minded and sincere.
You might return to the RCC, if your study is open-minded and sincere.
Posted on 2/11/24 at 7:50 pm to Lightning
quote:
The Pope can say whatever he wants but what do his actions show?
When a priest chooses to blatantly defy what the Pope says and in fact is blessing the union: Rev. Jan Korditschke decided to hold blessings for LGBTQ+ couples in Berlin “because the love of homosexuals is something good.
“I stand behind what I am doing, though it is painful for me that I cannot do it in tune with the church leadership,” Korditschke, who works for the city’s Jesuit diocese. LINK
Surely this priest would be pastorally corrected, as even he acknowledges his actions are not in tune with church leadership, despite the vow of obedience he took? Well no, apparently not because this priest has been saying these things for at least 3 years now and he’s still a chaplain and teacher at a Catholic spiritual retreat center.
There’s also this woman, Theresia Härtel, a sexologist and pastoral worker in the Berlin area. Härtel serves as the contact for queer-sensitive pastoral care within Bernhard Lichtenberg, the parish that Herz Jesu is within.
Härtel wears her passion for sex education on her ears, in the form of clay earrings in the shape of an anatomically correct vulva, swinging as she bustles through the church’s courtyard, greeting nearly every person that passes by.
In addition to her queer-sensitive pastoral work, Härtel leads a youth group at the Herz Jesu church. LINK
The Pope does not have to allow this, the church has a hierarchy and its clergy take vows of obedience. These people are flagrantly disobeying Church doctrine while proudly giving interviews and posing for pictures at their Church-owned offices. Are the clergy defrocked? Lay people fired? Are we to assume Pope Francis does not know about the statements and actions of these people, despite clear evidence that he is aware?
Alright, so I'm going to assume you really don't know what I'm going to tell you.
The document Francis put out about blessings was, in part, a response to these German Bishops and their priests advocating for a lot of this LGBTQ stuff that goes against Church teaching. It lines out all the limits of a blessing, which end up not being what the German Bishops want. They wanted liturgical blessings/a formal right, Francis told them to go pound sand.
After it was written, the Vatican came out and explained it was a strong response to the German bishops who are openly advocating for gay marriage because it denies their petitions. The Vatican also has these German bishops scheduled to continue to come to the Vatican (like three times this year). They've already told them to stop, and they keep telling them to stop. The Pope is not just ignoring them, but he is trying to get them back into the fold/correct them without letting them fall away. Unfortunately, the issue in Germany isn't contained to just a few extreme parishes. It's a lot of them.
This post was edited on 2/11/24 at 7:54 pm
Posted on 2/11/24 at 7:51 pm to L.A.
The pope can eat shite
Posted on 2/11/24 at 8:50 pm to CatholicLSUDude
I actually am aware of the history with the German bishops but I appreciate you explaining it politely.
As you stated, this has been going on for several years now and the tension between the German bishops and the Vatican continues. The Pope isn’t ignoring it, but I would argue that 3 years is long enough for pastoral counseling to get them back in line. This isn’t a handful of rogue priests, this is a large organization of priests, bishops (including the president of the German bishops’ conference) and cardinals. Pope Francis could put a stop to it tomorrow, or in 2021, IF he wanted to.
Bishop Franz-Josef Overbeck, for example, said in 2021 “that priests in his diocese would not have to expect any consequences if they oppose the prohibition of the blessing of homosexual connections. He will not "suspend a priest of his diocese or put other church sentences on him" if he blesses a homosexual relationship.” LINK
Yet in 2023, Overbeck was STILL a bishop and STILL defying Vatican orders.
I understand the idea of correcting them while keeping them in the fold, but it’s not working - they continue to blatantly ignore those corrections. Francis doesn’t have to excommunicate him but WHY is this guy still a bishop when he’s thumbing his nose at church hierarchy and clearly breaking his vow of obedience? He could be removed from public ministry, forbidden from speaking to the media, or any other of a variety of Church discipline options.
The fact that Francis hasn’t stopped it, means he doesn’t really want to.
As you stated, this has been going on for several years now and the tension between the German bishops and the Vatican continues. The Pope isn’t ignoring it, but I would argue that 3 years is long enough for pastoral counseling to get them back in line. This isn’t a handful of rogue priests, this is a large organization of priests, bishops (including the president of the German bishops’ conference) and cardinals. Pope Francis could put a stop to it tomorrow, or in 2021, IF he wanted to.
Bishop Franz-Josef Overbeck, for example, said in 2021 “that priests in his diocese would not have to expect any consequences if they oppose the prohibition of the blessing of homosexual connections. He will not "suspend a priest of his diocese or put other church sentences on him" if he blesses a homosexual relationship.” LINK
Yet in 2023, Overbeck was STILL a bishop and STILL defying Vatican orders.
quote:LINK
Overbeck also acknowledged that a “synodal committee” will begin work in Germany in November with the aim of establishing a permanent synodal council made up of bishops and laity to govern the Catholic Church in Germany. The Vatican has explicitly forbidden the establishment of this council as inconsistent with the Church’s ecclesiology, and four out of Germany’s 27 ordinaries voted in June to block funding for the synodal committee from a common fund.
I understand the idea of correcting them while keeping them in the fold, but it’s not working - they continue to blatantly ignore those corrections. Francis doesn’t have to excommunicate him but WHY is this guy still a bishop when he’s thumbing his nose at church hierarchy and clearly breaking his vow of obedience? He could be removed from public ministry, forbidden from speaking to the media, or any other of a variety of Church discipline options.
The fact that Francis hasn’t stopped it, means he doesn’t really want to.
Posted on 2/11/24 at 8:51 pm to CatholicLSUDude
quote:
GO READ THE DOCUMENT. They have come out and clarified multiple times, but the document clearly says it's not blessing the union, it's blessing the people.
I’ve read the document as have other Catholic scholars. And many Catholic scholars — and much of the Bishopdom in Africa and Eastern Europe — have voiced concerns that Fiducia Supplicans unnecessarily raises serious doctrinal questions among the faithful.
“The ambiguity of [Fiducia Supplicans], which is open to many interpretations and manipulations, causes much confusion among the faithful and I believe that, as pastors of the Church in Africa, we must express clarity on this question in order to give a clear direction to our Christians…” Cardinal Fridolin Ambongo Besungu.
[Fiducia Supplicans] is a heresy that seriously undermines the Church, the Body of Christ, because it is contrary to the Catholic faith and Tradition….” Cardinal Robert Sarah.
One of the primary objections to the document is that just two years ago, the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith clearly stated that the Church did not have the power to give blessings to same-sex unions. If nothing changed from the earlier Responsum, then why issue the newer declaration?
If blessing a couple in an “irregular” relationship, are you not blessing their union? It’s a horribly worded document that raises more questions than answers and needlessly sows confusion and divides the faithful.
Everyone is focusing on same-sex relationships yet it specifically references “irregular” relationships. What exactly is meant by “irregular” relationships?
Does this include “irregular” relationships such as unmarried cohabiting couples, fornicating couples who do not live together, married adulterous couple or even polygamous relationships? Why even put the Church in a position to untie that Gordian knot?
Further, Catholic Priests already have the pastoral discretion to bless homosexuals since they have the pastoral discretion to bless all sinners so Fiducia Supplicans is an extraneous document. The confusion over Fiducia Supplicans thus arises from the Curia itself.
Yet this Jesuit Pope accuses anyone who has objections to the document as hypocrites while he himself demonizes those who have sincere yet grave objections to the document. I once gave Francis the benefit of the doubt yet at this late stage I’m tired of hearing this bitter and small-minded man talk out of both sides of his mouth after repeatedly issuing polemical statements and delving into casuistry to defend those statements.
I am especially tired of the hallelujah chorus in the Church who continue to apologize for this Pope’s demonization of anyone who dares to question his controversial proclamations. Is it too much to ask that Pope Francis for once practice what he preaches?
This post was edited on 2/11/24 at 9:19 pm
Posted on 2/11/24 at 9:06 pm to Champagne
quote:
Bless the Sinner and not the sin is not heretical
The problem is that there are people who will fail to understand the difference between blessing the sin and blessing the sinner. Such people might decide that the Church condones homosexuality. The position of the church should not appear to differ from the Scriptures.
Posted on 2/11/24 at 9:13 pm to Champagne
quote:
Absolutely nothing the Pope says changes the Catechism.
And absolutely nothing said in Fiducia Supplicans has brought clarity to the Catechism. The very purpose of the Apostolic See is to bring clarity and shine light on Catholic doctrine.
I’m tired of pretending that the repeated ambiguous pronouncements of this Jesuit Pope is all a simple misunderstanding that is misinterpreted by the secular media. No, at this late stage it is increasingly obvious that Pope Francis is a ideologue who seems to delight in sowing division and rancor in the Church.
Posted on 2/11/24 at 9:14 pm to CatholicLSUDude
quote:
Unfortunately, the issue in Germany isn't contained to just a few extreme parishes. It's a lot of them.
And every one of those extreme parishes could have their priest reassigned, replaced with a doctrinally conservative priest, maybe from Africa or even the recently ordained American priests.
Posted on 2/11/24 at 9:30 pm to LRB1967
quote:
The problem is that there are people who will fail to understand the difference between blessing the sin and blessing the sinner. Such people might decide that the Church condones homosexuality. The position of the church should not appear to differ from the Scriptures.
Yes.
And to put a finer point on it, the primary problem here is that Fiducia Supplicans does not contain a universally and simply understood phrase such as “Bless the Sinner But Not The Sin” and is instead an exercise in ambiguous legalese that is open to multiple interpretations.
This is a repeated pattern with this Jesuit Pope.
This post was edited on 2/11/24 at 9:39 pm
Posted on 2/11/24 at 9:37 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
“Bless the Sinner But Not The Sin”
But by blessing a sinner who you know will continue to live in that sin (in this case homosexual marriage) are you, in effect, blessing the act as well as the sinner?
Pray for them to repent and turn away from their sin? Certainly. But don't bless them, knowing that they will carry on.
This post was edited on 2/11/24 at 9:39 pm
Posted on 2/11/24 at 9:50 pm to Lightning
quote:
And every one of those extreme parishes could have their priest reassigned, replaced with a doctrinally conservative priest, maybe from Africa or even the recently ordained American priests.
It's coming. The current crop of priests being ordained in this day and age are among the most conservative we have seen in generations. It might take a decade or two but the liberalization of the Catholic Church will soon be at an end. Christ always wins in the end.
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