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Message
re: USA has lost its last two major wars
Posted on 8/17/21 at 10:53 am to Oilfieldbiology
Posted on 8/17/21 at 10:53 am to Oilfieldbiology
quote:
We were the only ones not doing well
In WWI tactics.
By the time that 1918 rolled around the corner, the most advanced thinkers on the topic of Infantry Tactics had already convinced their military systems to adopt the "Stoss" tactics that the German Stoss troops were using. These tactics are more like what we see today in tactical warfare, i.e. based on infiltration and by-passing enemy strongpoints and using infantry maneuver units as small as a half-squad.
0
Posted on 8/17/21 at 11:34 am to Havoc
quote:
I agree in principle, but the reality is when we go in and fight a war, and win, there is a vacuum that will be left behind.
We can pull all troops home and just say “come what May” and risk the same or even worse people taking power, or try to make it better or at least stable. I don’t see any other plausible way, do you?
The other way is to stop creating power vacuums which is the primary function at this point of a 200,000 person US army.
Nothing is “won” if a power vacuum is created. Saddam Hussein was a terrible man. Bush 1 was absolutely correct to stop at the Iraq border and say mission accomplished and bush 2 was a moron for using the army to create a power vacuum in Iraq. Bashar al Assad is awful but it was absolutely the right decision to not remove him and create a power vacuum. US interests have not been improved by removing Gaddafi and creating a power vacuum.
The Air Force, navy and marines are sufficient to defend American assets, contain bad actors and protect global trade routes.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 12:01 pm to Oilfieldbiology
Naw we lost focus. It was a huge spending of national treasure that enriched a few of our industries. We had no business nation building and the mission was done once we killed Bin Laden and his circle.
We have this odd view of how after the fighting and occupation works because we've really only down it a few times. With the South, several Spanish Islands, West Germany and Berlin, Japan, South Korea. We did poorly (look at this board) to mostly okay. Then the idealogical fight between us and the Soviets really messed with our priorities, so every major conflict has spiraled out from winning wars to winning hearts. When we don't need that anymore and were never good at it to begin with. We just need to learn to get the mission done. And let humanitarian aid be natural charity and UN work.
We have this odd view of how after the fighting and occupation works because we've really only down it a few times. With the South, several Spanish Islands, West Germany and Berlin, Japan, South Korea. We did poorly (look at this board) to mostly okay. Then the idealogical fight between us and the Soviets really messed with our priorities, so every major conflict has spiraled out from winning wars to winning hearts. When we don't need that anymore and were never good at it to begin with. We just need to learn to get the mission done. And let humanitarian aid be natural charity and UN work.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 12:34 pm to 13SaintTiger
Well we have trannies now, so we’re in better shape than ever, diversity is more important than anything else the military does. Winning wars shouldn’t be that important as long as we’re inclusive. There is no way the Taliban, Iranians, Chinese, etc., have what we have.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 1:13 pm to ned nederlander
The whole fricking U.S.Government leaks money like a broken main water line in NYC.
No problem. Just print some more $$.
No problem. Just print some more $$.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 2:02 pm to Kafka
quote:
The Tet Offensive was a military failure for the North Vietnamese. The NV Command regarded it as such... Until Walter Cronkite and the US media started claiming it was a disaster for the US. They hammered this home so much it became the "Quagmire" narrative.
Baby Boomers get really angry when I bring up this fact. Even conservative ones. I guess it is part of their coming of age narrative and they don't want to question it.
That said, we never should have gone into Vietnam nor forced young men to fight there. But yes, militarily we were winning it. And Kronkite was either an ignorant twit or an outright liar (another true statement that really angers Boomers of any ideology)
Posted on 8/17/21 at 2:07 pm to Breadstick Gun
quote:
Answer me this. What does winning in Afghanistan look like?
You can't win unless you turn it into a sand box. We should have gotten out once Bin Laden was killed.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 3:46 pm to 13SaintTiger
quote:
We are who they thought we were. This isn’t the 40s. We’re becoming the JV team
Baw we kicked the shite out of the north Vietnamese, Iraqis, and stomped a mud hole in anyone that got in our way in Afghanistan. Concerning Vietnam the politicians didn’t want to less us advance to the China border. Far as the other two go once we got tired of fricking with them we said peace out.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 7:30 pm to 13SaintTiger
You do realize that last war USA was in was WW2, correct?
Posted on 8/17/21 at 8:02 pm to Loup
What does winning the war in afghan look like? Simply staying there like we have the last 20 years? We could have done that to infinite we zero real effort if we wanted to. But what the hell is the point?
Posted on 8/17/21 at 9:10 pm to TBoy
quote:
I’m starting to come around to the position that this Afghanistan mission was designed only to shovel huge money to military contractors.
From that cynical perspective, the 20 year “mission” was a smashing success.
I was about to post the same thing.
"Winning" these wars is too quick.
To plunder billions of taxpayer dollars for your stockholders, lengthy occupation is where it's at.
The redistribution of wealth from average American taxpayers to stockholders in military related contracting companies likely dwarfs every single "waste of tax money" people complain about combined .
This post was edited on 8/17/21 at 9:11 pm
Posted on 8/17/21 at 10:07 pm to Oilfieldbiology
quote:any and every military force we've faced.
We kicked the ever living shite out of
We don't suck at "war", we aren't doing so good at nation-building. And that's a whole different game...
Posted on 8/17/21 at 10:35 pm to tigahbruh
quote:
Baby Boomers get really angry when I bring up this fact. Even conservative ones. I guess it is part of their coming of age narrative and they don't want to question it.
That said, we never should have gone into Vietnam nor forced young men to fight there. But yes, militarily we were winning it. And Kronkite was either an ignorant twit or an outright liar (another true statement that really angers Boomers of any ideology)
The casualties in Vietnam were 50x higher than the war on terror, there were points when we were losing 10,000 a year KIA.
The argument was that Vietnam simply was not worth that many men lost.
It was impossible for us to "win" there because we were never there to do anything but fight the north to a stalemate and allow the South to take over(same as post 2001 Afghanistan). When a stalemate is producing the "One Week in Vietnam" Life magazine cover in year 5 of the war it's time to start wondering if it's worth it.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 10:36 pm to tigahbruh
quote:\\What the frick are you talking about?
Baby Boomers get really angry when I bring up this fact. Even conservative ones. I guess it is part of their coming of age narrative and they don't want to question it.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 11:11 pm to 13SaintTiger
quote:
We are who they thought we were. This isn’t the 40s. We’re becoming the JV team
No, we lost illegal policing actions in parts of the world where we had no business. The last warwe fought ended in 1945. No congressional declaration, no war- just stupid, unconstitutional, illegal actions being conducted by our government.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 11:14 pm to 13SaintTiger
We have never lost a war bitch ever. Our proxies have lost wars that the serious intelligence community not to fight or to get out as soon as possible but the political powers that be fricked that up.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 11:17 pm to Oilfieldbiology
quote:
We did lose this war but not because our soldiers weren’t the best fighting force in the world, we lost because the American people do not have the stomach to be a world power.
It's npt that we don't have the stomach for it. The problem is that we no longer have the economy for it. Your military isn't what makes you a world power. Your military can't survive as all powerful without the nation being economically successful. And, face it, our economy is for shite right now while congress puts together yet another "budget" that can't be supported without going further into debt.
The American people didn't lose their will. Our government lost its integrity.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 11:28 pm to TutHillTiger
Again, we haven't lost a military conflict in a long, long time.
What we're "losing" at, is trying to social-engineer countries, trying to make them copies of us, after we kick the shite out of them.
What we're "losing" at, is trying to social-engineer countries, trying to make them copies of us, after we kick the shite out of them.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 11:39 pm to Scoob
quote:
What we're "losing" at, is trying to social-engineer countries, trying to make them copies of us, after we kick the shite out of them.
The only way this has a prayer of being effective is if you stay there for multiple generations and are seen as benevolent most of the time by most of the people. From a practical POV that is nearly impossible.
Posted on 8/17/21 at 11:50 pm to 13SaintTiger
In case you’re forgetting…
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