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St Charles Clean Fuels Ammonia public notice meeting halted as 200+ came and chaos ensued
Posted on 10/3/24 at 11:19 am
Posted on 10/3/24 at 11:19 am
St Charles Clean Fuels is an 8,000 MTPD Ammonia Facility planned in St Charles Parish. They plan to capture CO2 off the Ammonia production process and inject it into a nearby reservoir to qualify for the Inflation Reduction Act 45Q tax credit that qualifies for $85 per Metric Ton of CO2 sequestered. It's basically cover the expense with no real profit in doing the carbon capture. A kind of goodwill item, but no company would do if it was ended up costing them more to implement.
The planned public notice meeting was put in a place that can hold 60 people. Over 200 St Rose citizens ended up showing up. Tempers were flaring. The meeting had to be ended to be rescheduled in a larger building.
In my opinion, it was very stupid of these people to place this facility in basically metro New Orleans with residences surrounding the fence line. Ammonia facilities are no joke in terms of explosion radius. There are plenty of other locations that are less populated than St Rose area along the MS River.
There's another angle on this that the town where the facility is located in St Rose, Louisiana, supposedly was a community started by former slaves that when slavery ended, recruited other African Americans to come live there.
The Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality which issues Air Permits along with the county issuing the permit to build and operate the facility always take into account Environmental Justice, local history, socioeconomic factors. This area checks every box/category for a Justice40 tract (a tool the White House published to show communities like this). There's no getting around it except maybe handing higher ups at these public roles hundreds of thousands or millions in bribery.
I personally don't think it should matter what the race is, but these public departments do care. They basically control whether you can build this plant or not.
I don't see this plant happening with this kind of pushback. We'll see.
Article
The planned public notice meeting was put in a place that can hold 60 people. Over 200 St Rose citizens ended up showing up. Tempers were flaring. The meeting had to be ended to be rescheduled in a larger building.
In my opinion, it was very stupid of these people to place this facility in basically metro New Orleans with residences surrounding the fence line. Ammonia facilities are no joke in terms of explosion radius. There are plenty of other locations that are less populated than St Rose area along the MS River.
There's another angle on this that the town where the facility is located in St Rose, Louisiana, supposedly was a community started by former slaves that when slavery ended, recruited other African Americans to come live there.
The Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality which issues Air Permits along with the county issuing the permit to build and operate the facility always take into account Environmental Justice, local history, socioeconomic factors. This area checks every box/category for a Justice40 tract (a tool the White House published to show communities like this). There's no getting around it except maybe handing higher ups at these public roles hundreds of thousands or millions in bribery.
I personally don't think it should matter what the race is, but these public departments do care. They basically control whether you can build this plant or not.
I don't see this plant happening with this kind of pushback. We'll see.
Article
This post was edited on 10/3/24 at 11:32 am
11
Posted on 10/3/24 at 11:24 am to Saunson69
quote:
There's another angle on this that the town where the facility is located in St Rose, Louisiana, supposedly was a community started by former slaves that when slavery ended, recruited other African Americans to come live there.
Why is this relevant?
Posted on 10/3/24 at 11:27 am to migui8618
I know there's plenty of Whites who live in St Rose. I hate pointless talking points like this.
Posted on 10/3/24 at 11:28 am to migui8618
quote:
Why is this relevant?
The Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality which issues Air Permits along with the county issuing the permit to build and operate the facility always take into account Environmental Justice, local history, socioeconomic factors. This area checks every box/category for a Justice40 tract (a tool the White House published to show communities like this). There's no getting around it except maybe handing higher ups at these public roles hundreds of thousands or millions in bribery.
I personally don't think it should matter what the race is, but these public departments do care. They basically control whether you can build this plant or not.
This post was edited on 10/3/24 at 11:30 am
Posted on 10/3/24 at 11:30 am to Saunson69
quote:
There's no getting around it except maybe handing higher ups at these roles hundreds of thousands or millions in bribery.
The deposits must not have arrived in time; thus, the chaos.
Posted on 10/3/24 at 11:34 am to Saunson69
quote:
Environmental Justice
Posted on 10/3/24 at 11:58 am to Saunson69
quote:
This area checks every box/category for a Justice40 tract
Posted on 10/3/24 at 12:33 pm to Saunson69
From the Inclusive Louisiana Facebook page yesterday:
quote:
PLEASE JOIN US:
On Monday, October 7, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit will hear arguments in our landmark environmental racism case brought by Inclusive Louisiana, Mount Triumph Baptist Church, and RISE St. James. The hearing presents a critical opportunity to hold the St. James Parish council accountable for a lengthy pattern of discriminatory land use practices that centralize heavy industrial facilities and high-polluting petrochemical plants in majority-Black neighborhoods, to prohibit all new sitings of facilities, and to implement remediation measures.
WE NEED YOUR ATTENDANCE: Transportation available, contact: Inclusive.Louisiana@gmail.com
#EnvironmentalJustice #CancerAlley #EnvironmentalRacism #Louisiana
Posted on 10/3/24 at 12:36 pm to Cuz413
https://www.whitehouse.gov/environmentaljustice/justice40/
Justice 40 was implemented by an executive order issued by Joe Biden.
Climate and Economic Screening Tool
Justice 40 was implemented by an executive order issued by Joe Biden.
Climate and Economic Screening Tool
Posted on 10/3/24 at 12:41 pm to Cuz413
quote:
This area checks every box/category for a Justice40 tract
LINK
quote:
For the first time in our nation’s history, the Federal government has made it a goal that 40 percent of the overall benefits of certain Federal climate, clean energy, affordable and sustainable housing, and other investments flow to disadvantaged communities that are marginalized by underinvestment and overburdened by pollution. President Biden made this historic commitment when he signed Executive Order 14008 on Tackling the Climate Crisis at Home and Abroad within days of taking office. To continue delivering on his environmental justice vision, President Biden signed Executive Order 14096 on Revitalizing Our Nation’s Commitment to Environmental Justice for All in April 2023.
What kinds of investments fall within the Justice40 Initiative? The categories of investment are: climate change, clean energy and energy efficiency, clean transit, affordable and sustainable housing, training and workforce development, remediation and reduction of legacy pollution, and the development of critical clean water and wastewater infrastructure.
So big investment of a clean energy/environmental quality type project being built in a rural black community is a bad thing now? I thought that's what the White House wanted?
This post was edited on 10/3/24 at 12:43 pm
Posted on 10/3/24 at 12:54 pm to Saunson69
quote:FWIW, the 45Qs do not come close to covering the expense of capturing the carbon. Most companies are in the process of finding that out right now which is why you will see a lot of these projects start to die off. They would have to be able to monetize the difference in cost with their end product premium. I.e. Sell the "blue" ammonia here at a premium to regular ammonia with the premium + 45Qs covering the sequestration cost.
It's basically cover the expense with no real profit in doing the carbon capture. A kind of goodwill item, but no company would do if it was ended up costing them more to implement.
Posted on 10/3/24 at 12:57 pm to Saunson69
quote:
They plan to capture CO2 off the Ammonia production process and inject it into a nearby reservoir
Why are there so many damn science deniers? Why do these companies not value life on this planet?
Posted on 10/3/24 at 1:25 pm to notsince98
quote:
Why are there so many damn science deniers? Why do these companies not value life on this planet?
Not like a lake reservoir if that's what you thought I meant. It'll be injected into a formation reservoir via injection wells in South East Louisiana. Probably in the Miocene formation as it's the most favorable from a permeability and porosity perspective. It'll be injected in depths of at least 4,000+ ft underground. Could be deeper. There are multiple layers of "cap rock" above 4,000 ft that wouldn't allow the CO2 to migrate to the surface. Basically trapping the CO2 underground.
This post was edited on 10/3/24 at 1:30 pm
Posted on 10/3/24 at 1:30 pm to Saunson69
quote:
The Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality which issues Air Permits along with the county issuing the permit to build and operate the facility always take into account Environmental Justice, local history, socioeconomic factors.
“Always”
Posted on 10/3/24 at 1:39 pm to Saunson69
quote:
The Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality which issues Air Permits along with the county issuing the permit to build and operate the facility always take into account Environmental Justice, local history, socioeconomic factors.
Not under this state administration.
The EPA can’t use Civil Rights Act to fight environmental injustice in Louisiana, judge rules
quote:.
The state sued in May 2023, a move that may have played a role in the EPA dropping an investigation into whether Louisiana officials put Black residents living in an industrial stretch of the state at increased cancer risk. The area, often referred to as “cancer alley” because of the amount of suspected cancer-causing pollution emitted there, stretches along the Mississippi River from Baton Rouge to New Orleans.
This post was edited on 10/3/24 at 1:41 pm
Posted on 10/3/24 at 1:44 pm to Saunson69
quote:
I personally don't think it should matter what the race is, but these public departments do care. They basically control whether you can build this plant or not.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered, but you have to consider who is in charge. There is zero chance that DEQ is denying a permit over EJ with Giacometto as Secretary.
EPA on the other hand? They have the ability to drag the process out for years if they choose to.
eta: Situations like this also why the Landry administration is trying to figure out how to legally block out of state groups from suing the state over environmental permits and bar them from the public participation process.
This post was edited on 10/3/24 at 1:51 pm
Posted on 10/3/24 at 1:45 pm to lostinbr
In the 1976-1980 period a railroad train drove through an ammonia truck about a mile west of Boutte and the gas release killed every. breathing plant and animal in a 1 mile radius. Ammonia plant siting should be well away from human development
Posted on 10/3/24 at 1:55 pm to Saunson69
quote:
Ammonia facilities are no joke in terms of explosion radius. There are plenty of other locations that are less populated than St Rose area along the MS River.
There’s an operating ammonia plant directly across the river from the New Orleans airport.
Posted on 10/3/24 at 3:57 pm to Saunson69
quote:
Not like a lake reservoir if that's what you thought I meant. It'll be injected into a formation reservoir via injection wells in South East Louisiana. Probably in the Miocene formation as it's the most favorable from a permeability and porosity perspective. It'll be injected in depths of at least 4,000+ ft underground. Could be deeper. There are multiple layers of "cap rock" above 4,000 ft that wouldn't allow the CO2 to migrate to the surface. Basically trapping the CO2 underground.
No. I'm talking about pulling CO2 out of the atmosphere and sequestering it where it is removed from the carbon cycle.
CO2 is arguably the most critical atmospheric element to land based life on this planet. It provides oxygen we breath and the carbon for all the food we eat. We at near CO2 minimums for what "scientists" can guestimate of the history of the Earth. If CO2 levels drop below 200ppm, modern plant life wont survive. The absolute last thing we need to be doing is reducing CO2 levels.
This post was edited on 10/3/24 at 3:59 pm
Posted on 10/3/24 at 4:37 pm to TigerTatorTots
quote:
FWIW, the 45Qs do not come close to covering the expense of capturing the carbon. Most companies are in the process of finding that out right now which is why you will see a lot of these projects start to die off. They would have to be able to monetize the difference in cost with their end product premium. I.e. Sell the "blue" ammonia here at a premium to regular ammonia with the premium + 45Qs covering the sequestration cost.
Most of the time the operator isn't even taking all of the tax credits. Those are usually sent to investors who in return offer cheap project capital. The operator would usually only retain enough ownership to take a small % of the credits then get a servicing fee from the JV that owns the asset. At some point the asset will flip back to the operator, usually right after the credits sunset and they get an asset on their books for cheap.
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