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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 2/22/24 at 8:44 pm to WeeWee
Posted on 2/22/24 at 8:44 pm to WeeWee
I have - I went to a rural area southeast of Kiev in 2016 right before the election and then again in 2018. It's true that evey fence post or sign had the blue / yellow Ukraine flag crudely painted on them in every town or village I saw.
I gather I didn't venture far enough east to see otherwise.
My point is that these people had no animosity for Russians - many that I met and interacted with had family in Russia. They all spoke Russian and practised the same Orthodox faith.
The only people I met who despised Trump wad an intellectual family in a lovely house outside of kiev in a very American feeling neighbourhood. But they were great wonderful people - the husband was a professor or writer and the wife a fashion blogger and their son reminded me of the rich kids here in Portland - it makes sense that they craved closer ties to the EU, they had traveled all over and were tired if Ukraine being so third world.
That's why I referred to it as a "Civil War", I didn't necessarily mean that to become a sticking point or for it to get tied up in debate on technicalities of what a "Civil War" is. Just that there are literally relatives forced to fight against relatives in this dumb fricking war where literally no one wins except politicians, contractors, and dictators.
I gather I didn't venture far enough east to see otherwise.
My point is that these people had no animosity for Russians - many that I met and interacted with had family in Russia. They all spoke Russian and practised the same Orthodox faith.
The only people I met who despised Trump wad an intellectual family in a lovely house outside of kiev in a very American feeling neighbourhood. But they were great wonderful people - the husband was a professor or writer and the wife a fashion blogger and their son reminded me of the rich kids here in Portland - it makes sense that they craved closer ties to the EU, they had traveled all over and were tired if Ukraine being so third world.
That's why I referred to it as a "Civil War", I didn't necessarily mean that to become a sticking point or for it to get tied up in debate on technicalities of what a "Civil War" is. Just that there are literally relatives forced to fight against relatives in this dumb fricking war where literally no one wins except politicians, contractors, and dictators.
This post was edited on 2/22/24 at 8:51 pm
1
Posted on 2/22/24 at 8:50 pm to SirWinston
quote:
The saddest thing is that so-called "lifelong Republicans" in this thread are clearly sending blind upvotes to these leftists.
Thanks for the reminder that Ukraine has bipartisan support!
Posted on 2/22/24 at 8:53 pm to cypher
It's fine for Republicans to support Ukraine I suppose, but I'd appreciate at least a little disdain for Zelenskyys betrayal, for the U's fealty to Obama / Biden and for the obvious corruption and the seeming desire to draw this conflict out as long as possible for financial gain.
And to not blindly call those of us who point out how disgusting this all is as "Putinistas", etc. It should DEFINITELY be far more nuanced than "Slava Ukraini!!!11" from our side. Those insults from fellow Trump supporters are especially triggering bc of all the gaslighting and lies we've endured for the last 8 years. To hear Stormy or GOP Tiger say that really sucks bc they know how damaging all this shite was to Trumps presidency and to our country.
And to not blindly call those of us who point out how disgusting this all is as "Putinistas", etc. It should DEFINITELY be far more nuanced than "Slava Ukraini!!!11" from our side. Those insults from fellow Trump supporters are especially triggering bc of all the gaslighting and lies we've endured for the last 8 years. To hear Stormy or GOP Tiger say that really sucks bc they know how damaging all this shite was to Trumps presidency and to our country.
This post was edited on 2/22/24 at 8:57 pm
Posted on 2/22/24 at 8:58 pm to SirWinston
quote:
Those insults from fellow Trump supporters are especially triggering bc of all the gaslighting and lies we've endured for the last 8 years. To hear Stormy
The only thing I've called your dumbass out on was saying you hated interracial couples and saying we've sent over 100B cash
Posted on 2/22/24 at 9:02 pm to StormyMcMan
ISW Update
quote:
Key Takeaways:
Russian Security Council Deputy Chairperson Dmitry Medvedev said that Russia would likely have to seize Kyiv sooner or later while identifying Russia’s possible further territorial objectives in Ukraine.
Medvedev’s mention of Russia’s possible intentions to occupy Odesa may be worth noting in light of recent developments in the pro-Russian breakaway republic of Transnistria in Moldova, the southern tip of which is about 50 kilometers from the city.
Medvedev also described Russian plans to repress Ukrainian citizens in occupied Ukraine.
Russian President Vladimir Putin met with Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) leaders and Republic of Tatarstan Head Rustam Minnikhanov on February 21 and 22.
Ukrainian forces conducted another successful strike against a Russian training ground in occupied Kherson Oblast on February 21 and likely inflicted significant casualties.
Ukraine’s European and Western allies continue to ramp up their support for Ukraine.
Russian opposition outlet Proekt reported on February 22 that the Russian government has subjected at least 116,000 Russians to criminal and administrative charges since the start of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s fourth term in office in 2018.
Kremlin Spokesperson Dmitry Peskov stated on February 22 that the Kremlin does not regard Russian military correspondents (voyenkory) and milbloggers as participants of the Russian full-scale invasion of Ukraine, shortly after the suicide of a prominent Russian milblogger on February 21.
Russian forces recently made confirmed advances near Bakhmut and Avdiivka.
A Russian insider source claimed that Russian officials have postponed creating Rosgvardia’s 1st Volunteer Corps from remaining Wagner Group detachments because of an ongoing rotation of former Wagner personnel in Africa.
Russia continues to export its state policies on systemic religious persecution to occupied Ukraine.
Posted on 2/22/24 at 9:08 pm to SirWinston
quote:
I have - I went to a rural area southeast of Kiev in 2016 right before the election and then again in 2018. It's true that evey light post had the blue / yellow Ukraine flag painted on them in every town or village I saw. I gather I didn't venture far enough east to see otherwise.
Did you go to Ukraine prior to 2014? I am not trying to call you out with this part of my post but just to compare experiences. I have been to Ukraine multiple times in the last 12 years and seen the change in the attitudes of the people. I first went in 2012 and with the exception of government buildings and the Ukrainian national soccer team’s match I didn’t see much as far as patriotic displays went in Lviv, Odessa, or Kyiv. The mood of the country towards Russia was generally good except for in Lviv where it was a little negative. The first time I went to eastern Ukraine was in 2015 when I went to Kharkiv with my medical school roommate over our August break. The mood of the city was mixed with some being pro-Ukrainian and some being apathetic. However, there was an anger and resentment over the illegal annexation of Crimea that was building. When I went back to Kharkiv in 2019 the attitude had turned to mostly resentment. I also went to Odessa, Kyiv, Lviv, and Dnipro during that trip and the blue and yellow stuff was everywhere and a f**k Russia attitude was present. When I went to Kharkiv and other parts of Ukraine in 2022 and last year the attitudes had changed to a downright hatred of Russia. I actually think the eastern Ukrainians hated the Russians more than western Ukrainians did.
quote:
My point is that these people had no animosity for Russians - many that I met and interacted with had family in Russia. That's why I referred to it as a "Civil War"
Which was an incorrect characterization of the war for which I was calling you out on.
Posted on 2/22/24 at 9:09 pm to WeeWee
quote:Sorry.quote:No I wasn’t.
Please explain how a war between Russia and Ukraine is a civil war? You're referencing the Donbass Civil War?
You were. As you were with me. The stupidity involved is daunting. Own it. Apologize for it. Move on.
Posted on 2/22/24 at 9:15 pm to SirWinston
quote:
The saddest thing is that so-called "lifelong Republicans" in this thread are clearly sending blind upvotes to these leftists.
What does it matter if a far left extremist gets upvotes or if a far right extremist gets upvotes or if a centrist gets upvotes? This is the internet. No amount of upvotes or downvotes in this thread is going to affect what is happening in Ukraine right now or in the future.
Posted on 2/22/24 at 9:16 pm to NC_Tigah
I’ve never seen someone get their arse handed to them and still claim victory quite like you
You missed your calling in law
You missed your calling in law
Posted on 2/22/24 at 9:19 pm to SirWinston
quote:As a person who votes as an independent, I couldn't care less about "so-called lifelong Republicans."
The saddest thing is that so-called "lifelong Republicans" in this thread are clearly sending blind upvotes
Posted on 2/22/24 at 9:33 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Please explain how a war between Russia and Ukraine is a civil war? You're referencing the Donbass Civil War?No I wasn’t.Sorry. You were.
No I was asking Sir Winston the time frame of when he went to Ukraine. Sir Winston understood that and responded to my post with an answer that discussed the timeline of when he went to Ukraine and touched on what he saw there. If Sir Winston realized that I was asking him about when he went to Ukraine when I typed the words since 2014, why can’t you realize it?
quote:
As you were with me.
Nope. I was referencing the current war between Ukraine and Russia. The antiterrorist operation (ATO) which was later called the War in the Donbass could be called a civil war. I say could because the people in the Donbas who stayed in the Donbas and didn’t relocate to other parts of Ukraine after the separatist movements started considered themselves to be ethnic Russians and considered it to be a war of liberation and would have been insulted to hear it called a civil war. However all of that changed on 2/24/22 when Russia launched its invasion of Ukraine.
quote:
Own it. Apologize for it. Move on.
You should take your own advice.
Posted on 2/22/24 at 9:41 pm to WeeWee
This brings up something I haven't been able to comment on yet
The poli board, Tucker, and other Putin lovers have a tendency to call this a Russian civil war from the viewpoint of Ukraine being a part of Russia due to ethnicity. However, if this was true, wouldn't this actually be be a Ukrainian civil war considering Russias ties to the people of the Kievian Rus?
The poli board, Tucker, and other Putin lovers have a tendency to call this a Russian civil war from the viewpoint of Ukraine being a part of Russia due to ethnicity. However, if this was true, wouldn't this actually be be a Ukrainian civil war considering Russias ties to the people of the Kievian Rus?
This post was edited on 2/22/24 at 9:42 pm
Posted on 2/22/24 at 10:13 pm to WeeWee
LINK
An article from Vox. (No aids)
This is an interesting read from 10 years ago. (Especially from a very left leaning source).
Then one starts to wonder who backed the Union during the Civil war. Russia?
Couldn't be.
Who backed the confederates?
France? United Kingdom?
There seems to be a big grey area between black and white...
10 years from now the war in Ukraine could be seen as it was 10 years ago... A Civil war.
An article from Vox. (No aids)
This is an interesting read from 10 years ago. (Especially from a very left leaning source).
Then one starts to wonder who backed the Union during the Civil war. Russia?
Couldn't be.
Who backed the confederates?
France? United Kingdom?
There seems to be a big grey area between black and white...
10 years from now the war in Ukraine could be seen as it was 10 years ago... A Civil war.
Posted on 2/22/24 at 10:33 pm to EMAW2000
Nice back and forth here
So did any of you answer the basic question? What led to this conflict between Russia and Ukraine?
Why is the United States treating Ukraine like a NATO nation when it isn't?
To understand the Donbas conflict I think it would probably take a lot time researching and asking locals who understand the history and culture...
Putin claims that's when first blood was drawn..2014
Is that accurate? I don't know
I listened to a Russian Podcast right after the Ukraine war started back up in 2022.. they were matter of fact that it was related to Donbass...and NATO expansion
TFWIW- but when our media and politicians are pushing aid to beat PUTIN "or our sons and daughters will have to go fight over there" , that kind of rhetoric is a massive red flag...
2 things
Trump calls Zelenski (the perfect phone call) and ends up being impeached
General Flynn gets his career railroaded and bankrupted over phone calls during transition phase of new administration ...
2 years later...we're sending Billions in old weapons and aid to Ukraine.."Putin must be defeated"
Make that make sense...that Putin is aggressor..?
So did any of you answer the basic question? What led to this conflict between Russia and Ukraine?
Why is the United States treating Ukraine like a NATO nation when it isn't?
To understand the Donbas conflict I think it would probably take a lot time researching and asking locals who understand the history and culture...
Putin claims that's when first blood was drawn..2014
Is that accurate? I don't know
I listened to a Russian Podcast right after the Ukraine war started back up in 2022.. they were matter of fact that it was related to Donbass...and NATO expansion
TFWIW- but when our media and politicians are pushing aid to beat PUTIN "or our sons and daughters will have to go fight over there" , that kind of rhetoric is a massive red flag...
2 things
Trump calls Zelenski (the perfect phone call) and ends up being impeached
General Flynn gets his career railroaded and bankrupted over phone calls during transition phase of new administration ...
2 years later...we're sending Billions in old weapons and aid to Ukraine.."Putin must be defeated"
Make that make sense...that Putin is aggressor..?
This post was edited on 2/22/24 at 10:34 pm
Posted on 2/22/24 at 10:41 pm to ApexTiger
quote:
2 things
Trump calls Zelenski (the perfect phone call) and ends up being impeached
General Flynn gets his career railroaded and bankrupted over phone calls during transition phase of new administration ...
2 years later...we're sending Billions in old weapons and aid to Ukraine.."Putin must be defeated"
Make that make sense...that Putin is aggressor..?
Yeah you put it very nicely here. I can't wrap my head around how any Trump supporter could be expected to give Ukraine the benefit of the doubt. If it weren't for my 7-year relationship with a Kiev born woman and the experiences I had with her family and friends both here in the US and there in Ukraine I'd quite literally hate Ukraine for their governments part in ruining the Trump Presidency and soaking the US taxpayers to over $100 billion cash (and growing).
Posted on 2/22/24 at 10:44 pm to WestCoastAg
quote:
This brings up something I haven't been able to comment on yet The poli board, Tucker, and other Putin lovers have a tendency to call this a Russian civil war from the viewpoint of Ukraine being a part of Russia due to ethnicity. However, if this was true, wouldn't this actually be be a Ukrainian civil war considering Russias ties to the people of the Kievian Rus?
IIRC, the Putinist view (for lack of a better term) of Russian history considers the descendants of the Ruthenians (aka the inhabitants of the Kievian Rus) to be Russians because it was a Ivan the Terrible who was Rusyn and the Grand Prince of Moscow who had himself crowned Sovereign and Grand Prince of all Russia which later became Tsar. Since it was a Grand Prince of Moscow who united all the Russias and not a Grand Prince of Kyiv every living person and all of their descendants for all time in any of the Ruthenian kingdom owed their allegiance to and became subjects of the principality of Moscow. The Rusyns then spent many centuries rulling the Russias that the people of the principality of Moscow thought everyone was happy being Russian. It doesn’t make sense to me because the descendants of the Ruthenians came up with the name of Ukrainians to distinguish themselves from Russians and tried to leave Moscow’s orbit every chance they got. Like I said, it doesn’t make sense to me but it does to Putin. When the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, or the Constitution of the United States was signed Virginians did not stop being Virginians and become Pennsylvanians just because the legislature met in Philadelphia.
Posted on 2/22/24 at 10:52 pm to EMAW2000
quote:
10 years from now the war in Ukraine could be seen as it was 10 years ago... A Civil war.
It was never a civil war.
Putin tried to call it that to mask his invasion. But it was just a good old fashioned resource grab.
Just like he tried to call the 2022 invasion a Special Military Operation.
Same land grab.
The only people who will ever call this a civil war are the Russian troll farm bots reading their talking points
Posted on 2/22/24 at 10:59 pm to WeeWee
quote:
Go to Ukraine and see for yourself.
Which cities?
Be specific.
Posted on 2/22/24 at 11:00 pm to WeeWee
quote:
When the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, or the Constitution of the United States was signed Virginians did not stop being Virginians and become Pennsylvanians just because the legislature met in Philadelphia.
I would summarize by saying Putin's account or understanding of Russian history, is his perspective and that's what matters.
Having US scholars who claim to be experts in history and all things Putin trying to make sure American public isn't misled by Putin "deceitfulness" , is like trying to do marriage counseling through text messages.
The greatest failure of US foriegn policy is from a lack of in person meetings...
"What do you want?"
We've got the FBI claiming they were misled again...by the Russians
I mean it just never stops with the blame Russia for everything....always seems to be a play to help Democrats look better...
Posted on 2/22/24 at 11:04 pm to No Colors
quote:
Putin tried to call it that to mask his invasion. But it was just a good old fashioned resource grab.
Just like he tried to call the 2022 invasion a Special Military Operation.
Same land grab.
That part of Russia and Georgia are very close to the black sea . A vital port to Russia's economy
Russia was never going to let the US or NATO set up shop there...
This post was edited on 2/22/24 at 11:05 pm
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