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Message
re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 5/23/22 at 10:43 pm to DabosDynasty
Posted on 5/23/22 at 10:43 pm to DabosDynasty
quote:
Since I was 4 at the time, was there a legitimate feeling at the time Ukraine, Belarus, or Kazakhstan posed a real threat to just pop off a nuke vs rational action as other nuclear powers have engaged in?
Not necessarily that, the major concern was to make sure as much as possible that nuclear weapons and materials were secured and not able to be sold off to terrorist groups or other countries that were trying to develop nuclear weapons. It was about limiting proliferation and also preventing as much as possible accidents when these countries lacked the resources to maintain them safely.
When the Soviet Union collapsed many military members and scientists weren't getting paid. Unfortunately, as a result, there was a lot of financial incentive to people who were in a position to do so to sell weapons or technology to the wrong people.
So the U.S. cooperated with Russia to try and limit that.
3
Posted on 5/23/22 at 10:45 pm to WeeWee
quote:
Maybe you need to get your uneducated country bumpkin self down from the tractor and go to your local library and check out a dictionary, an atlas, and maybe a world history book.
Posted on 5/23/22 at 10:55 pm to Moot Point
quote:
When the Soviet Union collapsed many military members and scientists weren't getting paid. Unfortunately, as a result, there was a lot of financial incentive to people who were in a position to do so to sell weapons or technology to the wrong people.
"We Russians have the bomb! We have millions of them! We don't know where they all are..." - Robin Williams: Live on Broadway.
Posted on 5/23/22 at 10:56 pm to JayDeerTay84
quote:
You know, maybe the problem is I am using the literal meaning of the word “sovereign”. possessing supreme or ultimate powe
The problem is you should be saying sovereign nation but are just saying sovereign. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and in Ukraine the people are sovereign (yay democracy). Russia is a sovereign nation and in Russia Putin is sovereign.
Saying Ukraine is not a sovereign nation is a factually wrong. Saying Ukraine isn’t the supreme power amongst nations is factually correct. Saying Ukraine is or is not sovereign is just incoherent rambling and I apologize to this thread for engaging.
Posted on 5/23/22 at 10:57 pm to Moot Point
quote:
Not necessarily that, the major concern was to make sure as much as possible that nuclear weapons and materials were secured and not able to be sold off to terrorist groups or other countries that were trying to develop nuclear weapons. It was about limiting proliferation and also preventing as much as possible accidents when these countries lacked the resources to maintain them safely. When the Soviet Union collapsed many military members and scientists weren't getting paid. Unfortunately, as a result, there was a lot of financial incentive to people who were in a position to do so to sell weapons or technology to the wrong people. So the U.S. cooperated with Russia to try and limit that.
And now we see that was a mistake and we should have pushed Russia to get rid of its nukes too.
Posted on 5/24/22 at 12:57 am to JayDeerTay84
quote:
Sovereignty, in my view, is strength. That is why North Korea exist as economically and socially insignificant as they are
So in your mind, the myriad of pacific Island nations aren't actually nations? Like Samoa or Tonga aren't nations?
Posted on 5/24/22 at 1:18 am to StormyMcMan
Operation paperclip 2.0?
@SamRamani2
quote:
BREAKING: Germany plans to go ahead with relaxing visa terms on skilled Russian workers in spite of espionage concerns
@SamRamani2
Posted on 5/24/22 at 2:37 am to Obtuse1
quote:
Because you are a one dimensional thinker. There is nothing wrong with this as it can be a benefit in some pursuits or occupations, just not geopolitics. In that realm you have to keep track of all the balls and all the intended consequences and myriad unintended consequences of even the most subtle actions and inactions.
I can't believe you un-ironically typed this, Mr Multi-dimensional thinker. There are myriad unintended consequences should we get further entangled in this conflict. Namely, getting American kids killed. Because if you don't think if after dumping $40 billion into Ukraine (of which very little will go to actually defending Ukraine) the calls for further action are going to grow if Russia keeps pushing. You know it, I know it.
I still want someone to explain the existential threat Russia faces to the United States should they take over Ukraine. There is none. Russia's military is wrecked for the next decade, at the least. They won't be able to whip Liechtenstein. Yet, y'all are convinced they're going to roll through the Fulda Gap next week if we don't line a bunch of their politicians' pockets with $40billion. What a fricking joke. Russia is not (if they ever really were) a global power. They've more than demonstrated that. They're a regional bully. Let the regional powers deal with them.
If this conflict has done anything, it has demonstrated that American involvement in NATO has reached it's expiration date. Continuing to spend billions of our dollars while Western Europe refuses to pick up their part of the tab is insanity. Their economic GDP outsizes Russia. They are more than capable of defending themselves against that paper tiger.
Posted on 5/24/22 at 5:58 am to SoFla Tideroller
Not to get super in depth about potential export issues of wheat,cooking oil and fertilizer thar are global issues, but you do realize that the US is a regional part of Russia overall given the proximity of Alaska right?
ETA: and at least one Duma member has called for Russia to take Alaska back seeing as we bought it from them
ETA: and at least one Duma member has called for Russia to take Alaska back seeing as we bought it from them
This post was edited on 5/24/22 at 6:03 am
Posted on 5/24/22 at 7:11 am to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
I still want someone to explain the existential threat Russia faces to the United States should they take over Ukraine. There is none. Russia's military is wrecked for the next decade, at the least. They won't be able to whip Liechtenstein. Yet, y'all are convinced they're going to roll through the Fulda Gap next week if we don't line a bunch of their politicians' pockets with $40billion
So our money has been put to good use. Russia’s army is destroyed and we can keep them st bat for the next 10 years. Sounds good to me. Letting them run wild would have been bad.
Posted on 5/24/22 at 7:20 am to lostinbr
quote:
You apparently took issue with his usage of the word “sovereign.” I will admit, I do find the word to be overused in this thread. I also find it a bit redundant. So what if I edit one word in his post?:
No, I didnt take issue with it. Everyone else did when I said Ukraine wasn't a sovereign state; yet but a puppet of both the West and Russia.
Then everyonelese was like "But they are sovereign!". My point is that it doesn't really mean anything. Its just a word.
Was Crimea not part of "sovereign" Ukraine? What happened when Russia annex it? NOTHING....
So yea, that was my point. The rest is just noise and semantics.
This post was edited on 5/24/22 at 7:21 am
Posted on 5/24/22 at 7:22 am to RLDSC FAN
UK backs Lithuania’s plan to lift Russian blockade of Ukraine grain
Britain has backed in principle a proposal by Lithuania for a naval coalition “of the willing” to lift the Russian Black Sea blockade on Ukrainian grain exports.
The Lithuanian foreign minister, Gabrielius Landsbergis, proposed the plan during talks with the UK foreign secretary, Liz Truss, on Monday in London.
Landsbergis proposed that a naval escort operation – not run by Nato – could protect the grain ships as they headed through the Black Sea and past Russian warships. He suggested that, apart from Britain, countries that were affected by the potential loss of grain such as Egypt could provide the necessary protection.
The Guardian
Britain has backed in principle a proposal by Lithuania for a naval coalition “of the willing” to lift the Russian Black Sea blockade on Ukrainian grain exports.
The Lithuanian foreign minister, Gabrielius Landsbergis, proposed the plan during talks with the UK foreign secretary, Liz Truss, on Monday in London.
Landsbergis proposed that a naval escort operation – not run by Nato – could protect the grain ships as they headed through the Black Sea and past Russian warships. He suggested that, apart from Britain, countries that were affected by the potential loss of grain such as Egypt could provide the necessary protection.
The Guardian
Posted on 5/24/22 at 7:33 am to Moot Point
quote:
Not necessarily that, the major concern was to make sure as much as possible that nuclear weapons and materials were secured and not able to be sold off to terrorist groups or other countries that were trying to develop nuclear weapons. It was about limiting proliferation and also preventing as much as possible accidents when these countries lacked the resources to maintain them safely.
When the Soviet Union collapsed many military members and scientists weren't getting paid. Unfortunately, as a result, there was a lot of financial incentive to people who were in a position to do so to sell weapons or technology to the wrong people.
So the U.S. cooperated with Russia to try and limit that.
And now here we are in Ukraine. To add to that NK has nukes, although lack of ability to deliver effectively likely, Iran developing their program with a shame of a nuclear deal we’re responsible for, and we’ve armed terrorist groups all over the Middle East who later attacked us.
Citizens should never give up the guns and nations should never give up the nukes. Same principle on two different scales.
Not arguing with you, just making me point in general. Thanks for your response.
Posted on 5/24/22 at 7:36 am to WeeWee
quote:
And now we see that was a mistake and we should have pushed Russia to get rid of its nukes too.
They’d have never done that and on the 0.0001% chance they would it would have to be paired with our own denuclearization which would be incredibly stupid. The best move was to leave Russia surrounded by 3 nuclear states and our help in modernization, democratization, and capitalization.
Posted on 5/24/22 at 7:39 am to StormyMcMan
quote:
So in your mind, the myriad of pacific Island nations aren't actually nations? Like Samoa or Tonga aren't nations?
You do realize there are country's/nations that are not classified as sovereign right? It is a real thing.
I never said Ukraine was not a nation. I said it was a puppet state of the West and Russia.
Posted on 5/24/22 at 7:39 am to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
I still want someone to explain the existential threat Russia faces to the United States should they take over Ukraine.
You are correct. Russia controlling one of the largest exporters of wheat on the entire planet will have zero repercussions here in the US.
None. Zilch. Totally impossible we will be affected in any way.
Posted on 5/24/22 at 7:39 am to JayDeerTay84
quote:
You do realize there are country's/nations that are not classified as sovereign right?
Name them, then explain why they are not a sovereign nation.
Posted on 5/24/22 at 7:42 am to JayDeerTay84
quote:
Was Crimea not part of "sovereign" Ukraine?
Yes
quote:
What happened when Russia annex it? NOTHING....
Ummmm....lots of things actually
Wikipedia on all the sanctions that started in 2014 It is because of these sanctions that Russia had already started trying to figure out work arounds such as the MIR payment system.
On top of the sanctions, Ukraine started getting assistance and training from NATO.
quote:
On 23 December 2014, the Ukrainian parliament renounced Ukraine's non-aligned status, a step harshly condemned by Russia.[6][84] The new law stated that Ukraine's previous non-aligned status "proved to be ineffective in guaranteeing Ukraine's security and protecting the country from external aggression and pressure" and also aimed to deepen Ukrainian cooperation with NATO "to achieve the criteria which are required for membership in the alliance".[85] On 29 December 2014, Poroshenko vowed to hold a referendum on joining NATO.[86]
A number of military exercises were planned between NATO members and Ukraine in 2015.[87] Among them were Operation Fearless Guardian (OFG) which totalled 2,200 participants, including 1,000 U.S. military. Initial personnel and equipment of the 173rd Airborne Brigade arrived in Yavoriv, Lviv Oblast, on 10 April 2015. OFG would train Ukraine's newly formed Ukraine National Guard under the Congress-approved Global Security Contingency Fund. Under the program, the US Army was to train three battalions of Ukrainian troops over a six-month period beginning in April 2015,[88] Others initiatives include Exercise Sea Breeze 2015 (total 2,500 personnel of which 1,000 US military and 500 military from NATO or "Partnership for Peace" countries), "Saber Guardian/Rapid Trident – 2015" (total 2,100 members, including 500 US military and 600 NATO/PfP personnel), as well as the Ukrainian-Polish air exercise "Safe Skies – 2015" (total 350 participants, including 100 Polish military) and military police "Law and Order – 2015" (total 100 participants, 50 of which are Polish military).[citation needed]
In September 2015, NATO launched five trust funds for €5.4 million for the Ukrainian army. €2 million are planned to be sent for the modernization of communication systems, €1.2 million – to reform the logistic and standardization systems, €845 thousand – for physical rehabilitation and prostheses, €815 thousand for cyber defense, and €410 thousand for retraining and resettlement
LINK
It can easily be said that the annexation of Crimea was Phase I of Putin's plan and this is just a continuation of that.
If your point is there was minimal international fallout (i.e. global food shortages), I'd be inclined to agree, but that had mainly to do with how it happened more than anything. Ports weren't blocked, trade was never impacted, fields weren't bombed, etc. This is a much different animal now and you are being willfully ignorant if you don't see it. I mean hell, no one lifted a finger for Ukraine when Russia basically said "We are just going to take over the LPR and DPR". This would be a different situation entirely if they hadn't tried to take over the entire country.
Posted on 5/24/22 at 7:43 am to DabosDynasty
quote:
The best move was to leave Russia surrounded by 3 nuclear states and our help in modernization, democratization, and capitalization.
Fewer states with nukes = Good.
Posted on 5/24/22 at 7:48 am to JayDeerTay84
quote:
I never said Ukraine was not a nation. I said it was a puppet state of the West and Russia.
I mean you basically did:
LINK
quote:
No. I dont consider Poland anything until they were in NATO and secured.
If you don't consider Poland a country until they were protected by NATO you don't consider Ukraine a country either.
LINK
quote:
If you cant defend or secure the means to defend country, how are you sovereign
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