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Started By
Message
re: Ford CEO: Stopping the $7500 tax incentive will cut the EV industry in half
Posted on 10/3/25 at 12:19 am to Obtuse1
Posted on 10/3/25 at 12:19 am to Obtuse1
quote:
The market is still OK in Europe but the Euro manufacturers are ceding the market to the Chinese which now have a significant part of the market and growing quickly. Europe makes up 60% of the Chinese export market.
Long term the Chinese are going to do with EVs what Japan did with the small displacement small car in the 70s. "We" hated those small cars then but thats how we ended up with the juggernaut that is Toyota. Even so you can't just look at the domestic market you have to think international and bringing revenue here from foreign markets. SC and Spartanburg County gave lots of incentives to BMW no ~30 years later BMW is the largest (by value) exporter of cars in the US.
I respectfully disagree. Unless those Chinese engineers are hiding some solid state batteries up their butt, their cars won't go anywhere either. The problem is not the fact that the Chinese are cornering a portion of the market. It's the technology is not evolving the way it was promised. Nevvertheless, the Chinese have a huge labor force problem anyway. And it's only going to get worse in the next decade. Look for anything coming from them to increase in price over the next few decades.
Battery technology has fascinated me for years now. I drove one of the first Prius' to hit the US market years ago and almost bought one. What changed my mind ultimately was the fact that the batteries only had a 10 year lifespan and cost over $10K to replace. Back then, Toyota was selling those cars in the US at a loss in the order of about $8K and they freely shared that. They only did it because of the money it saved them in tariffs (overall MPG across their production line dropped significantly).
Of course, I haven't even touched on the fact that some states (here's looking at you California) have dramatically throttled back the electrical flow to homes that are sensed to be charging EVs. Some owners in CA are reporting that overnight charging is only bringing their vehicles to about 50-60% charge. With AI computer centers drawing enought electricity to power a small country, the gov. has basically told the EV manufacturers to expect less and less power to charge their vehicles. They have responded.
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Posted on 10/3/25 at 2:11 am to weagle1999
Does this mean my car will go up in value?
It’s a Nissan Altima.
It’s a Nissan Altima.
Posted on 10/3/25 at 3:01 am to VooDude
quote:
Does this mean my car will go up in value? It’s a Nissan Altima.
Yes. From $2.25
To $3.50
Posted on 10/3/25 at 3:04 am to N2cars
quote:
Mrs Cars next car might be a Sapphire...
Subtle "I hate my wife" brag
Posted on 10/3/25 at 3:10 am to Obtuse1
quote:
The market is still OK in Europe but the Euro manufacturers are ceding the market to the Chinese which now have a significant part of the market and growing quickly. Europe makes up 60% of the Chinese export market.
Please explain. It seems it is just Chinese batteries. All I see here is hybrids and electric. Very few true petrol left. All are Renault, Skoda, and other more well known over there. Cupra, part of SEAT is making huge moves and are becoming hugely popular.
Also, Europe has a big advantage on EV/plug-in hybrid use. Cities are more central (no suburban sprawl) and they do not drive near as much. Building the infrastructure here is not the true nightmare it is back in the states.
This post was edited on 10/3/25 at 3:14 am
Posted on 10/3/25 at 3:29 am to weagle1999
If your entire industry is propped up by a gigantic government subsidy, it's a shite industry.
Tax payer funds should not be subsiding automakers to make cars nobody actually wants.
Tax payer funds should not be subsiding automakers to make cars nobody actually wants.
Posted on 10/3/25 at 4:30 am to weagle1999
Translation: “Ford has put most of its eggs in the EV basket, please don’t take away the main thing that incentivizes some people to buy them as I miscalculated their importance. Without government intervention and taxpayer dollars, the market doesn’t actually exist.”
Posted on 10/3/25 at 5:50 am to weagle1999
Tesla model Y is the best selling car in the world. I don’t see that changing in the 4Q even without the tax incentive.
Posted on 10/3/25 at 5:53 am to TimeOutdoors
quote:
Tesla model Y is the best selling car in the world. I don’t see that changing in the 4Q even without the tax incentive.
quote:
Tesla model Y is the best selling car in the world. I don’t see that changing in the 4Q even without the tax incentive.
And Elon has been quite clear about tax incentives vs. no tax incentives. He just wants an equal playing field and knows Tesla will continue to flourish.
Posted on 10/3/25 at 6:06 am to Obtuse1
The problem with your analogy is that Japanese made reliable, well built small cars and Chinese EV’s are junk. Get on YouTube and look up the channel "China Observer", video after video of Chinese junk that they struggle to sell to their own citizens. They rely on gimicks, cut corners on safety, and generally have very poor build quality with corrosion issues, peeling paint and interior surfaces, malfunctioning electronics, etc.
This post was edited on 10/3/25 at 9:21 am
Posted on 10/3/25 at 6:26 am to Cosmo
quote:
Put basic arse V6 and V8s in everything No turbo, no soft hybrid
Pre Biden EPA V6s and V8s.
There isn’t a vehicle being made by any manufacturer that’s as reliable as it was pre-Covid and the prices have exploded.
Posted on 10/3/25 at 6:38 am to ChiefCornerstone
quote:
If you're in this thread arguing for EVs and know nothing about the battery technology, I suggest you take some time and go research both solid state batteries and the junk it takes to make these batteries in the first place.
I wouldn’t say I’m arguing for EVs. But I have been curious enough about this debate that I decided to buy one to make a personal assessment. What I’ve
found is that Tesla makes an extremely fun and innovative car to drive, and has a very expansive charging network that allowed me to buy in Orlando, and drive the thing home to LA the same day I bought it. That is, its range and charging network are already acceptable IMO. Everyone I have let drive it has said “I liked that way more than I thought I would”.
I understand lots of people get stuck on this notion that it is either EV or ICE, there can only be one and EV has no chance. I just don’t see it that way, I understand the limitations, especially when it comes to commercial purposes, but the technology for a commuter car is already there. Charging at home at night is actually a good solution for most drivers and really doesn’t cause any infrastructure issues in terms of electrical generation capacity.
I have actually argued for years that the EVs should have been incentivized (if at all, that is) as second or third vehicles, to get them on the road and provide cash flow and testing, without the need to fast track charging solutions required for daily drivers, and maybe we could actually plan that better in a more unified way. Ford and GM were incentivized or even mandated to make these things and have basically only been able to move them because of the credits. Just not a great product and now they will fold up production. It’s a fragmented market that obviously needed help to get off the ground, and it looks like the net result (in the US market at least) is that it will be consolidated back to Tesla and other niche high-end EVs like Lucid, Rivian and maybe Polestar - all of which probably would have survived on their own.
Posted on 10/3/25 at 6:38 am to SloaneRanger
quote:
See what the free market does.
Yep.
We leased a LEAF when they first came out, for three reasons and three reasons alone: Fed tax credit, GA tax credit, subsidized Ga Power smart meter and basically free night time charging. (And I guess indirectly the artificially inflated cost of gas due to taxes.)
It was basically a “free” commuter car for two years courtesy of the government.
Posted on 10/3/25 at 6:40 am to Clames
quote:
The problem with your analogy is that Japanese made reliable, well built small cars and Chinese EV’s are junk
Yep. Japanese made good cars. The US cars were total junk from mid-70's to...well...today with the exception of a few.
If tUSA would have made good cars, Japanese brands would have never had a chance. US auto buyers were and are still today more brand loyal than any other product.
The Europeans I know, are very much the same.
This post was edited on 10/3/25 at 6:41 am
Posted on 10/3/25 at 6:40 am to tide06
quote:
Pre Biden EPA V6s and V8s. There isn’t a vehicle being made by any manufacturer that’s as reliable as it was pre-Covid and the prices have exploded.
This is probably the main reason I bought mine, to preserve life of my pre-covid non hybrid Toyotas. And gas obviously, the V8 is thirsty.
Posted on 10/3/25 at 6:59 am to OceanMan
quote:
I wouldn’t say I’m arguing for EVs. But I have been curious enough about this debate that I decided to buy one to make a personal assessment. What I’ve found is that Tesla makes an extremely fun and innovative car to drive, and has a very expansive charging network that allowed me to buy in Orlando, and drive the thing home to LA the same day I bought it. That is, its range and charging network are already acceptable IMO. Everyone I have let drive it has said “I liked that way more than I thought I would”.
I bought my Tesla because I wanted to reduce the miles input on my Xterra because I absolutely love it. My plan was to keep both, but I’m leaning towards donating my Xterra to Tunnels2Towers now because the Tesla has exceeded my expectations greatly. I was planning on driving to Texas today to have a hitch installed (put in a service order a few weeks ago), but they messaged saying there was no need to drive over, that they are sending their mobile service team to me.
In my opinion, it’s the best value for a very car currently. I work in an office with one other person, and they are shopping for a Tesla now.
The new Model Y performance has just been released and they were including the upgraded wheels, interior, and premium connectivity at 0 costs with the base price. I’m not sure if that is still being offered or not.
Posted on 10/3/25 at 7:03 am to SloaneRanger
quote:
See what the free market does
Sometimes a little government intervention can be warranted.
This post was edited on 10/3/25 at 7:06 am
Posted on 10/3/25 at 7:08 am to alajones
quote:
Sometimes a little government intervention can be warranted
If you think it was government that changed work environments, you would be dead wrong. Insurance companies did. Government via OSHA and MSHA came much later.
Posted on 10/3/25 at 7:16 am to Obtuse1
quote:
I am absolutely gobsmacked by people's poor grasp of even basic macro economics. The idea is not to subsize an industry in order to reduce the proce for overseas customers, it is to foster an industry in order to maintain a technological advantage in order to manufacture widgets here and export them.
I’m well aware how it works. Some small subsidies and assistance is one thing, but the government should have never gone damn near full head first on EV and wind mill tech. The government wasn’t really involved in the beginning with oil.
The problem is, look at windmill and look at EV. It’s going to essentially fail and back track exponentially.
The real short and mid term future is a very small market for EV’s and a broader market for hybrids in the 15-40% of car owner market. I actually think hybrids are a great idea for many people.
The government should do their best to stay out of any private tech that could fail. Maybe some small grants and what not here and there. Otherwise let capitalism and VC fund it if it’s that good.
ETA: this idea the USA at this point with our wealth is going to ‘get behind’ is a lie. We have enough wealth that we will quickly catch back up to anyone in something that is prosperous. Look at chip manufacturing. Sure, it may take 4-5 years but sometimes you have to be patient. Planning to always be the best at literally everything is planning to waste a frick ton of money on bad investments.
This post was edited on 10/3/25 at 7:19 am
Posted on 10/3/25 at 7:49 am to OceanMan
A Prius with an precovid SUV or truck might be the best you can do right now logically.
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