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Message
re: Hollinger on the Status of the Pels
Posted on 1/2/22 at 12:34 pm to RUFshreve
Posted on 1/2/22 at 12:34 pm to RUFshreve
quote:
Griffin really has been a disaster for this franchise.
Do people really need this kind of hyperbole? He has obviously not been a disaster, as we are 1.5 games out of the play-in, without our franchise player, and we are 10-7 in our last 17 games.
Griff isn't responsible for Zion's foot injury, without which we would undoubtedly be in the top 6 teams in the West, which is all I think that most of us expected from this season.
You can't just dismiss the Willie Green hiring, the drafting of Herb, and the Valanciunas acquisition and say that those things mean nothing.
I also don't think that Griff has been all that great, and I don't see any need to defend the Lonzo trade. I was on the fence about keeping Lonzo, but we clearly did not get market value for him. I will say that Temple and Sato have looked more like actual rotation players of late, instead of the unmitigated disasters they seemed to be at the beginning of the season.
You don't have to be a hater or a fanboy, folks. You can try to be objective and say that, after the first 13 games, it looked like Griff's grade would be an F, but more recent developments make it look more like a C-, and his grade could go up even more, or it could go back down. Because, ultimately, he's responsible for the result.
3
Posted on 1/2/22 at 1:49 pm to GOP_Tiger
C- off-seasons result is stars leaving and the team moving.
Pels cannot afford c- off seasons especially with the assets they had/have.
Pels cannot afford c- off seasons especially with the assets they had/have.
Posted on 1/2/22 at 1:50 pm to shel311
quote:
NAW and Kira are not good enough to be rotational players on a legit team.
See where you’re coming from. I think both of them are 4th guards on a good team, but the problem is NAW’s been asked to be the 3rd guard and he’s not ready yet. Kira was really showing up too right before his injury.
quote:
Murphy is young, and Jax is the same as NAW and Kira, it's been 2.5 years and he hasn't proven he can be a nightly rotational guy. So we basically have 5 young guys plus Murphy. The truth is young or not so young doesn't matter, we need better players. We're playing multiple guys every night who are far below average players.
Don’t think it’s fair just give up on NAW, Kira and Hayes. All have shown improvement and they’re all ahead of Murphy as of now in their development. Agreed on needing better players, specifically another quality guard.
Posted on 1/2/22 at 1:52 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
He's shooting 39% from 3 this season. Everyone has bad shooting games, even Steph Curry doesn't go 5/10 every night.
In 34 games, he's shot:
>40% in 14 games
30-39% in 5 games (all of them were actually 33.3%)
20-29% in 4 games (all of them were actually 25.0%)
10-19% in 1 game
0% in 9 games
In 20 of 34 games, he's legitimately shot below the league average. As much as he's helping us win games, his shooting is equally costing us some too.
quote:
BI doesn't disappear in the big moments, he still tries to close games out. Lonzo tries to stay away from the ball in close games, much like Simmons.
Personally, I do not want lonzo closing at all and that's fine. Just like how I wouldn't want a Duncan Robinson or Bogdanovic.
I want those guys to be pull a defender and let my closer try to close.
quote:
Any team in the league would give up 2 2nds for Graham, and 90% of them would have given up a lottery protected 1st for him at the deadline last year. This is nowhere near a bad trade.
That's the point though, I don't think its a bad trade. I think its actually an excellent one for both sides. We didn't give up much for a good guard, and its team friendly deal. Charlotte had no intention on keeping him and got a potential 1st (if not than 2 2nds) for him.
We on the other hand had no intention on keeping Lonzo at his cost, somehow we helped facilitate and got a future 2nd that isn't this upcoming year.
quote:
Portland sent a lottery protected 1st to Chicago for them eating DJJ contract who was considered a negative contract at the time, and currently it doesn't look like Chicago will be getting that pick since Portland is a dumpster fire.
This is the info on that pick:
2022 first round draft pick from Portland
Portland's 1st round pick to Chicago protected for selections 1-14 in 2022, 1-14 in 2023, 1-14 in 2024, 1-14 in 2025, 1-14 in 2026, 1-14 in 2027 and 1-14 in 2028; if Portland has not conveyed a 1st round pick to Chicago by 2028, then Portland will instead convey its 2028 2nd round pick to Chicago [Chicago-Portland, 8/28/2021]; Chicago may forfeit Portland's 2028 2nd round pick (see Chicago Outgoing)
If anyone thought Portland would be THIS bad than they'd be lying to themselves. The plan for Chicago was to get a mid-late 1st for lauri, it didn't pan out. Oh well, it happens. At least they swung for it and I would bank they land a 1st out of Portland if they do intend on trading Dame and CJ this upcoming offseason.
Eating DJJ's expiring contract, same could be said of Satoransky's abysmal 10mil expiring too right?
quote:
He still gets minutes, but probably not nearly as many.
I would disagree. We don't have a true 4 without Zion and watching the game I see Herb and Hart play majority of their minutes as the 'small ball 4'. Which is also why we have defensive issues, but that's another discussion in itself.
You don't think NAW's 28, Temple's 20, Sato's 15, and Kira's 14 MPG would be affected moreso? Because I personally think the way NAW's played this year, you could argue he would decrease to 20-22 MPG instead.
quote:
And Graham, and a 10 million dollar contract to trade, and a steady veteran hometown presence that the young guys look up to and respect, which is kind of big for this team. You know Herb gained alot more respect for Garret when he stood up to that ref for him, something no other vet we've brought in would have done.
IIRC, financially someone had calculated that we could have kept both. If the numbers work out, I honestly think if you actually wanted Lonzo --- than you could keep him.
Now this is my personal belief. I 100% agree with you Temple is the kind of veteran a team wants. Absolutely. I am 100% on board with him on this team and by no means I think he's a shitty player and his off-the-court veteran presence contributes to a young team.
However I personally believe that overall --- when you compare ALL the deals this offseason, we got next to nothing for our lost talent while other teams across the league actually recouped something. That's where the 'loss' of this trade is. Taking back Sato + opening space for them to get a talented player should have garnered more than a 2nd round pick 2 years from now
Posted on 1/2/22 at 3:15 pm to shel311
quote:
Murphy is young, and Jax is the same as NAW and Kira, it's been 2.5 years and he hasn't proven he can be a nightly rotational guy.
Hayes is only a month older than Murphy
Posted on 1/2/22 at 3:49 pm to Jester
Griff hasn't been a disaster he has been very meh. A disaster would be if we were in this position with a bunch of bad contracts and no draft picks see Dell Demps.
And with Jax we have to remember he's a rim running big but the closest player we had to a true point is Jrue since Jax has been here. I would love for Jared Harper to get some playing time he seems like the only guard on the roster that can utilize Jax rolling to the rim.
And with Jax we have to remember he's a rim running big but the closest player we had to a true point is Jrue since Jax has been here. I would love for Jared Harper to get some playing time he seems like the only guard on the roster that can utilize Jax rolling to the rim.
Posted on 1/2/22 at 4:18 pm to Jar_Jar_80
quote:Probably the most realistic thing with Jax to say is the idea of him being a solid player with the Pels is on life support.
And with Jax we have to remember he's a rim running big but the closest player we had to a true point is Jrue since Jax has been here. I
It's a stretch, a HUGE stretch that he'll work out and be a solid contributor with the Pelicans. I'm not putting any stock into last night's performance because we've seen him do that before multiple times then go right back to looking lost for weeks at a time until he loses his spot in the rotation.
I hope it works out for him, and I hope it works out for him with the Pels. It's just very unlikely that is the case at this point.
Posted on 1/2/22 at 4:52 pm to shel311
Again, Hayes is the same age as Murphy, and big men typically take longer to develop. We should be able to sign him to a team-friendly second deal as a depth big. If he continues to develop, it could be huge for the roster. If he doesn't, it shouldn't adversely impact other moves.
Posted on 1/2/22 at 5:18 pm to htran90
quote:
In 20 of 34 games, he's legitimately shot below the league average
This is pretty much every player in the league. Nobody really ever shoots consistently 40% every game.
quote:
Eating DJJ's expiring contract, same could be said of Satoransky's abysmal 10mil expiring too right?
Depends on how you see them. DJJ is an always injured mediocre player. Sato was always a pretty good off the bench role player for Washington and Chicago, and has never shown anything different until this year, although his play has steadied of late.
quote:
IIRC, financially someone had calculated that we could have kept both.
Yes, we could have bundled Graham into the Memphis trade, however we wouldn't have received the 17 million trade exception back.
Truth is, we cannot fully evaluate anything to do with the offseason moves until we see what we do with that trade exception, and if we move Sato and what we get in return.
Let's just make an example and say Griff turns that trade exception into someone like Norman Powell, that made it all worth it right?
Posted on 1/2/22 at 5:46 pm to Jar_Jar_80
quote:
Griff hasn't been a disaster he has been very meh. A disaster would be if we were in this position with a bunch of bad contracts and no draft picks see Dell Demps.
They were both pretty bad. Griff was given way more assets to work with and an overall clean slate to work with. Only AD actually played more than Zion his first few seasons.
This post was edited on 1/2/22 at 5:48 pm
Posted on 1/2/22 at 6:00 pm to Townedrunkard
quote:
Griff was given way more assets to work with and an overall clean slate to work with.
That's some revisionist history there. They both negotiated trades of an All-NBA talent in his prime to teams in LA to reboot the franchise. They both had a consensus #1 overall pick in the draft.
Demps managed to maneuver himself into a place where the team had no real assets via the draft or trade for about 5 years. We'll see if Griffin can avoid that
Posted on 1/2/22 at 6:47 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Do people really need this kind of hyperbole? He has obviously not been a disaster, as we are 1.5 games out of the play-in, without our franchise player, and we are 10-7 in our last 17 games.
Way to cherry pick the few positives of our current situation, while ignoring everything else, while accusing me of being hyperbolic in my disdain for Griff.
The cons of his tenure double the pros. He was gifted a great opportunity and has done his best to squander the assets he's acquired, while we tread water going nowhere.
He hasn't built a winner, we're still a bottom 5 team, we are relying on luck more than anything right now. He's on his 3rd HC in 3 years, luckily I think he finally got that one right. Outside of drafting Herb with a second rounder, everything this off-season was a disaster and what's sad is that it was still an improvement from last off-season.
Griff has been a disaster. Sugarcoat it however you want, just like most of yall did the Lonzo trade(which now yall are finally admitting was bad for us) and keep your head in the sand. You're making excuses for Griff, just like many did for Dell for years.
Posted on 1/2/22 at 6:49 pm to RUFshreve
quote:
Outside of drafting Herb with a second rounder, everything this off-season was a disaster
Getting Jonas, Graham and Temple, re-signing Hart on a team friendly deal, re-signing Willy on a 3 year team friendly deal, and making Willie Green the HC was a disaster?
That all happened this offseason also bud.
quote:
we're still a bottom 5 team
You can't honestly still think this after seeing this team missing Ingram for long stretches and Zion for the entire season, right?
Fully healthy this is not a bottom 5 team.
This post was edited on 1/2/22 at 6:52 pm
Posted on 1/2/22 at 7:17 pm to htran90
quote:
In 34 games, he's shot:
>40% in 14 games
30-39% in 5 games (all of them were actually 33.3%)
20-29% in 4 games (all of them were actually 25.0%)
10-19% in 1 game
0% in 9 games
In 20 of 34 games, he's legitimately shot below the league average. As much as he's helping us win games, his shooting is equally costing us some too.
Im not some Temple defender, but this is just a dumb argument. Do you seriously think guys are supposed to be around their average every night?
Luka is shooting %.326 from 3 this year.
In 21 games, he's shot:
>40% in 6 games
30-39% in 4 games (all of them were actually 33.3%)
20-29% in 7 games (all of them were actually 25.0%)
10-19% in 4 game
Luka shoots threes 8.3 times per game. Temple, 3.4. Take away the rest of the skill set, who would you rather take your threes? Which one is more consistent? Temple is doing just fine, to act like his shooting is costing us games is just ridiculous. That's not to mention 5 of the times he shot %0, he only shot it once. In fact, when he's shot it over 5 times a game, he's shooting %41. Lets not act like that is costing us games.
Posted on 1/2/22 at 7:37 pm to RUFshreve
quote:
Way to cherry pick the few positives of our current situation, while ignoring everything else
Nope. My post specifically talked about how the Lonzo deal is a fail. Your defensiveness is hurting your reading comprehension skills.
quote:
Outside of drafting Herb with a second rounder, everything this off-season was a disaster
Herb is a big deal. To get a solid starter on a minimum contract for this year and the next two seasons and control him after that? That's huge.
Right now, Willie Green looks like a home-run hire. If we got our long-term coach, that's huge.
Valanciunas is a significant upgrade from Adams, and we got him extended for two more years at a solid price. That's not huge, but it is significant.
Trey Murphy and Devonte' Graham are not disasters.
There's no way to be both honest and intelligent and use the word "disaster" about our offseason.
Way to double-down on a ridiculous position.
Posted on 1/2/22 at 8:19 pm to GOP_Tiger
No bad contracts,great coaching hire, solid additions this offseason, and the possibility of Naw and Hayes on team friendly contracts makes me feel pretty good about the team's future.
We made progress this season after that train wreck last season and we erased what could have been a disaster had we kept Bledsoe and Adams.
While we aren't there yet, we have most of our building blocks on the roster. They just need to continue to improve the roster. A lead guard and a true 6th man could change a lot of things.
We made progress this season after that train wreck last season and we erased what could have been a disaster had we kept Bledsoe and Adams.
While we aren't there yet, we have most of our building blocks on the roster. They just need to continue to improve the roster. A lead guard and a true 6th man could change a lot of things.
Posted on 1/2/22 at 9:41 pm to supe12sta12z
quote:
and the possibility of Naw and Hayes on team friendly contracts
What do you mean by this? Do you mean their next deals?
They are both going to FA after next season. Anyone can sign them..
Posted on 1/2/22 at 9:53 pm to brmark70816
Next contract. They can still be offered an extension or the team can match any offers when they're rfa. Neither will command starter money based on what they've shown up to this point.
This post was edited on 1/2/22 at 9:54 pm
Posted on 1/2/22 at 9:56 pm to supe12sta12z
quote:
Neither will command starter money based on what they've shown up to this point.
there’s a reason for that.
if they both are still busts next year you let them go
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