re: Who wins in a fight? Captain America or Batman?

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Kinda like Tony Stark and his MK 192749863012856986234591634956

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Thank you for admitting this, Batman is a low level Tony Stark. At least in an Ironman suit Tony can lift cars. Cap has been shown to bench press like 1200 pounds and run a mile in 73 seconds. Bruce has human strength and stamina, nothing superhuman yet he can defeat any enemy because he's BATMAN. No other reason but fricking "Batman".

I suppose Cap could win if his had a Batashield instead of an Adamantium shield.

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No other reason but fricking "Batman".

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Clearly you missed his Dossier Making ability.

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Clearly you missed his Dossier Making ability.

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And you clearly missed the whole point of the joke. It was actually adding to your: well because he's Batman.

You sit there and say that Batman is the bigger culprit of the plot device brigade, but that doesn't pardon the rest from being able to do it. You say Batman wins because he's Batman, but same thing goes for the paraplegic Charles Xavier. He goes into battle on four wheels or hovering and if he dies (which just there to add the simplest of emotion: oh my god he's dead) it's cool, he already transferred to another body. Just because you say Batman always wins because he's Batman, doesn't mean other characters don't do the same. Charles Xavier never loses because he's Charles Xavier.

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And you clearly missed the whole point of the joke. It was actually adding to your: well because he's Batman.

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Uh, no. That's precisely why I after the comment. It's sarcasm.

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You sit there and say that Batman is the bigger culprit of the plot device brigade, but that doesn't pardon the rest from being able to do it.

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Ok.

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You say Batman wins because he's Batman, but same thing goes for the paraplegic Charles Xavier. He goes into battle on four wheels or hovering and if he dies (which just there to add the simplest of emotion: oh my god he's dead) it's cool, he already transferred to another body.

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What does Charles Xavier have to do with this?

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Just because you say Batman always wins because he's Batman, doesn't mean other characters don't do the same.

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And I never denied that either. And he doesn't win "because he's Batman," precisely, it's because the writer's have created the rule of "because he's Batman," for his matches.

I'd listen to a compelling argument for Batman winning, but no one has provided one outside of "He's Batman, It's dark, He'd have a dossier," etc.
Not one.

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Charles Xavier never loses because he's Charles Xavier.

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You do realize he's currently dead? And has been for a significant amount of time (outside of Future Xavier). He's literally in Heaven. Will he come back? Probably.

There's also a difference between narrative plot devices, things that affect overall stories, which is what deaths and amnesia are mostly, and this kind of "power" or "combat" plot device of Batman's ability to beat anyone with Dossiers. A big difference actually.

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You do realize he's currently dead? And has been for a significant amount of time (outside of Future Xavier). He's literally in Heaven. Will he come back? Probably. There's also a difference between narrative plot devices, things that affect overall stories, which is what deaths and amnesia are mostly, and this kind of "power" or "combat" plot device of Batman's ability to beat anyone with Dossiers. A big difference actually.

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Sorry using the phone so I'm not going to break up the points.

1. Pretty sure I just read where Xavier possessed Nightcrawler.
2. The only difference is ones is an apple and the other is an orange. In the end I'm finding one in my brown paper bag after I eat my sandwich.

the Batman "plot device" argument went stale in the 90s. The character rarely comes up with a new gadget to win. The hardest part of these arguments is that Batman is so much more culturally popular than Cap, that there are so many version of him. People see games, cartoons, movies, and think "yeah thats how Batman is."

He's much more than that in the comics. Btw, Cap also becomes a plot device when things get above his pay grade as well. What stories don't have plot devices?

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the Batman "plot device" argument went stale in the 90s.

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Tower of Babel was 2000.

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The character rarely comes up with a new gadget to win. The hardest part of these arguments is that Batman is so much more culturally popular than Cap, that there are so many version of him. People see games, cartoons, movies, and think "yeah thats how Batman is."

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He's much more than that in the comics.

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He's much more than what?

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Cap also becomes a plot device when things get above his pay grade as well. What stories don't have plot devices?

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See above.

I just don't understand how Batman goes from a hero who fights human villains such as the Joker, Two Face and such (who are great villains in the universe that Batman should remain in) to taking down Superman. There are normal humans that can go toe to toe with Batman in hand to hand combat, he gets outsmarted by the psychotic Joker all the time, and gets dinged up from fighting thugs as well.

You want me to believe that that same man could take on a person who regenerates, is faster, stronger, and is superior tactition?

That's not even putting in the parts where he's an expert marksman, can learn to use any weapon, has a shield that absorbs all kinetic energy and can throw it with such precision he can bounce it back to himself off of objects.

Batman is a fantastic hero, one of my favorites, but he belongs in his own universe or as a supporting role, which is why in the Justice League he was typically there on his own terms and came and went as he pleased.

He has his place, but he is no superhero. He is a vigilante and for the most part fought more down to earth type of threats. That's what makes him great, the fact that everyone can relate to him because at the end of the day he's full human with no enhancements, mutations or powers.

Anyhow, Batman is awesome, but he doesn't beat Cap in a fight. If he did have that capability then he wouldn't be that character as a kid you looked and thought, "I can be Batman." I don't ever remember thinking I could realistically be Superman or any of the others, but outside of the being rich part we could all see ourselves being:

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so a story where Batman doesnt even use his own files? its well documented he has these files. Every story literally has a plot device so you have a plot. This is used with every character. So how is Batman just a plot device here? The character itself is forced to deal with his own mistakes here.

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It's just indicative that the problem isn't relegated to the "90's"

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Dossiers, "good fighting ability," and a utility belt.

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Yeah and we should be talking about that, but those have been the only reasons presented.

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How does this answer Cap not also being a plot device from time to time?

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Why does it matter? All the people were saying about Batman is that his plot device tendencies should not be used to defend his ability in this fight, like Dossier Making.

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pretty sure I'v never used his "dossier making" for any of the debates. He rarely has a dossier unless its a common villain hes fought over and over. The most recent story arc was Court of Owls. He had no dossier to go off of when facing its main villain "Talon," which was actually very similar to Captain America in strength and fighting, but thats about it.

Batman's mind works on the fly and the evolving fight that takes place in the present. the dossier stuff is getting completely overblown.

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You sure about that?

Let's be clear, Dossier Making is shorthand for Batman's superhuman skill of prepping perfect plans for opponents. So let's take that definition and look at the thread:

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Batman. Bats would've already studied Cap and broke down ever element of his fighting style just on the 1/2 percent chance they would ever meet.

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Didn't batman create ways to take down the other members of the justice league in case he ever needed to.

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Batman would mind frick CA, and there would never even be a physical altercation. That shield would be a lazy suzan spinning in Wayne manor dinning hall before CA could even jump on a grenade. CA has a depth of moral code, Bats only has one rule.

If it got to a physical altercation, the only way CA stands a chance in hell is if its a surprise meeting and Bats has never known about CA. Even at that point CA would need to catch him in a very weakened state like Bane did.

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Agreed. Batman never fights fair, and his mind would would work circles around CA. The instances where Batman doesn't have a pre-arranged upper hand are few and far between.

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does Batman have time to prepare?

if so, he wins.

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And if Batman has time to study Captain America, and dictate terms, then Cap probably doesn't stand a chance.

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And your own post:

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BlacknGold

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this isnt a gladiator fight like the other thread. those circumstances never happen. this is a "real world" comic book encounter. do you think Batman would allow himself to be drawn into a fight where he doesnt have the upper hand? Cap gives orders as well as takes them.

As I said Batman fights dirtier than Cap. Bats would make sure he has every tactical advantage before engaging with a super soldier. This aint the arena. It would be a cold, dark street fight. I pick the Knight.

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