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re: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power S1, Episode 3 Thread | Amazon | Available Now
Posted on 9/10/22 at 8:15 pm to TexasTiger1185
Posted on 9/10/22 at 8:15 pm to TexasTiger1185
Finally got to watch it today and with the exception of Númenor I see this show getting less intriguing.
I am afraid others may be right that the stranger is Gandalf especially with the fact Isildur has been introduced 1700 years before his birth in the Lore.
Amazon has decided anything Tolkien has written was not good and determined to make their own version of the lore.
I am afraid others may be right that the stranger is Gandalf especially with the fact Isildur has been introduced 1700 years before his birth in the Lore.
Amazon has decided anything Tolkien has written was not good and determined to make their own version of the lore.
1
Posted on 9/10/22 at 8:19 pm to TideWarrior
quote:
Amazon has decided anything Tolkien has written was not good and determined to make their own version of the lore
The intention was to expand upon things never written. The Tolkien estate didn't want them making a show from established lore. Why is this still not known?
Posted on 9/10/22 at 8:47 pm to Jay Are
quote:
The intention was to expand upon things never written. The Tolkien estate didn't want them making a show from established lore. Why is this still not known?
Posted on 9/10/22 at 8:50 pm to Adajax
quote:
My rudimentary knowledge of Tolkien is a result of reading The Hobbit as a kid and the LOTR and Hobbit movies. I like checking in with these threads to gain insight and learn things I may have missed in the episode. After 5 pages of race/gender arguments I give up.
I mean, I’m directly forbidden in this thread to tell you who Celebrimbor is. How am I supposed to talk about the lore beyond the First Age when they give me nothing to go off of?
Posted on 9/10/22 at 8:51 pm to Socrates Johnson
quote:
When his head poked through the fallen tent, I was getting Radagast vibes.
Radagast is associated with the earth and forest, not fire. It’s not him.
Posted on 9/10/22 at 8:59 pm to OMLandshark
So, how was the prologue?
Posted on 9/10/22 at 9:24 pm to OMLandshark
You can discuss what happened in the episode and why.
Posted on 9/10/22 at 10:37 pm to Adajax
Seems to me that, right or wrong, they're going with 'life stages' instead of actual age with Galadriel. In this, she's still single, still driven to the point that she doesn't bother with diplomacy, it's her way or the highway. That's young adult. And since she's royalty (and a lot of her line has died), it's not too far-fetched that she would have a position of power, by birthright.
We get the wiser, more mature, married with children version in LOTR.
Now on the one hand, you can say 'my God, she's over 3 thousand years old, she should chill'. On the other hand, Elves don't age, and they view time differently as a result. So it's certainly possible she kept her rampaging youth rolling for millennia. She's not "getting older" or losing her beauty, she just hasn't progressed to that next phase yet. She's not "on the clock" or anything like that, it could go on indefinitely... she's ALWAYS going to be the hottest woman in the room, with the best bloodlines.
We get the wiser, more mature, married with children version in LOTR.
Now on the one hand, you can say 'my God, she's over 3 thousand years old, she should chill'. On the other hand, Elves don't age, and they view time differently as a result. So it's certainly possible she kept her rampaging youth rolling for millennia. She's not "getting older" or losing her beauty, she just hasn't progressed to that next phase yet. She's not "on the clock" or anything like that, it could go on indefinitely... she's ALWAYS going to be the hottest woman in the room, with the best bloodlines.
Posted on 9/10/22 at 11:42 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
I mean, I’m directly forbidden in this thread to tell you who Celebrimbor is. How am I supposed to talk about the lore beyond the First Age when they give me nothing to go off of?
You’re not watching the show right? So maybe just.. don’t.
Posted on 9/11/22 at 6:25 am to lostinbr
quote:This is why you don't act like an arse.quote:
I mean, I’m directly forbidden in this thread to tell you who Celebrimbor is. How am I supposed to talk about the lore beyond the First Age when they give me nothing to go off of?
You’re not watching the show right? So maybe just.. don’t.
OML has a lot of knowledge about the subject matter and desperately wants to talk about it. But because he's been incredibly obnoxious, annoying, and negative, nobody wants to talk with him.
And the fact is, this is the chance to talk Tolkien. There's not going to be other shows or movies, unless Amazon picks up the rights to make more. LOTR is over 20 years old, it's this show or the book club.
I also like the subject matter, and although it's not the way I would have imagined at every end, the pieces are in place. I know who Celebrimbor is, and why it's relevant
Posted on 9/11/22 at 7:27 am to Jay Are
quote:
The Tolkien estate didn't want them making a show from established lore. Why is this still not known?
Lot of people blaming Amazon for the Tolkien estate decisions in this thread
Posted on 9/11/22 at 7:30 am to Jay Are
quote:
The intention was to expand upon things never written.
As well as legally not changing any of the lore and/or contradicting info they are legally not allowed to use.
quote:
The Tolkien estate didn't want them making a show from established lore.
They are not expanding on things not written as they are specifically taken things already provided and changing them. Galadriel story was already known as well as Elrond and if the stranger becomes Gandalf the same. The only story line they have somewhat kept true to the lore is Sauron assuming he is who we think he is.
There is a big difference between expanding, which I wish they were doing, than completely taking liberties to rewrite the Lore that was all ready well established.
quote:
Why is this still not known?
And if you have read all the Tolkien material/Lore you would not be asking that question.
Posted on 9/11/22 at 8:34 am to TideWarrior
quote:
the Lore that was all ready well established.
I’ll post this again
The Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien
quote:
[T]here is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies 'embedded in the traditions'; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.2
quote:
This section of the book differs from the others (save those in Part Four) in that there is here no single text but rather an essay incorporating citations. This treatment was enforced by the nature of the materials; as is made clear in the course of the essay, a history of Galadriel can only be a history of my father's changing conceptions, and the "unfinished" nature of the tale is not in this case that of a particular piece of writing.
The history of Galadriel and Celeborn is so interwoven with other legends and histories - of Lothlórien and the Silvan Elves, of Amroth and Nimrodel, of Celebrimbor and the making of the Rings of Power, of the war against Sauron and the Númenórean intervention - that it cannot be treated in isolation, and thus this section of the book, together with its five Appendices, brings together virtually all the unpublished materials for the history of the Second Age in Middle-earth (and the discussion in places inevitably extends into the Third). It is said in the Tale of Years given in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings: "Those were the dark years for Men of Middle-earth, but the years of the glory of Númenor. Of events in Middle-earth the records are few and brief, and their dates are often uncertain." But even that little surviving from the "dark years" changed as my father's contemplation of it grew and changed; and I have made no attempt to smooth away inconsistency, but rather exhibited it and drawn attention to it.
There’s a lot of essays about this stuff too. About how JRR Tolkien continued to change, alter, and tinker with major aspects of Galadrial during the pre LOTR periods up until his death. That if we are to look at trends of his changes, it was giving Galadrial more import and strengthening her as a character. So to say it was all firmly settled is not correct. Big events yes, but a lot of the in-between stuff continued to be tinkered with, or simply wasn’t there.
All that to say these are adaptations. The Tolkien Estate had to approve things and they have approved the time compression. And I genuinely wonder how it would be done otherwise? As it would be near impossible to firmly establish many additional characters and you’d basically just be time hopping to various sequences across the 3441 years. But even the , these are ADAPTATIONS. You are taking works of lore and appendices with a loose timeline, shifting narratives with key characters, and making a cohesive 5 season story arc.
This post was edited on 9/11/22 at 8:36 am
Posted on 9/11/22 at 8:48 am to Bronc
All fights about consistency with the original story and the casting issues aside:
Kind of like in the hobbit movie, the introduction of new locations is on point. Very impressive.
Whoever is in charge of putting the orcs on screen is earning his keep. They look great.
The horse slow/mo scene was silly and looked odd.
Kind of like in the hobbit movie, the introduction of new locations is on point. Very impressive.
Whoever is in charge of putting the orcs on screen is earning his keep. They look great.
The horse slow/mo scene was silly and looked odd.
Posted on 9/11/22 at 8:51 am to GenesChin
quote:
Lot of people blaming Amazon for the Tolkien estate decisions in this thread
Correct, the Tolkien Estate, frankly, doesn’t get enough shite for how terribly hard they make it for people to adapt their works.
Even when they give up the rights, like they did with Amazon, it’s with all these stupid fricking caveats. They have rights to the LOTR and The Hobbit, but there is vague language in this and past contracts, that lawyers interpreted as they basically can’t, unless approved by the Estate, pull in anything from the films(so Amazon wanted to consult with Peter and others but basically came to conclude they couldn’t legally speaking)
And because they don’t have the rights to The Silmirillion, or The Unfinished Tales in full, they are having to make a Second Age show SOLELY from the appendices and whatever the Estate approved on a piece by piece basis. So they are making a 5 season series using basically 100-150 pages worth of material.
Posted on 9/11/22 at 8:56 am to Sus-Scrofa
quote:
The horse slow/mo scene was silly and looked odd.
That whole sequence was just terrible and weird. Don’t know that that director was thinking. You have this semi intense build up amidst Galadrial’s stone determination after this tense exchange and then on their way to another tense scene they just throw in this weird slow mo horse sequence that lingers waaayyy too long.
Honestly felt like an old Leslie Nelson movie where they would throw in random out of place scenes at key plot intervals and linger in them too long for comedic effect, then cut back to the story as if nothing weird just happened….but they did it seriously.
Posted on 9/11/22 at 9:23 am to Bronc
Posted on 9/11/22 at 10:35 am to Bronc
quote:
That if we are to look at trends of his changes, it was giving Galadrial more import and strengthening her as a character.
It is not and if the series has done anything it has devalued her.
quote:
Sauron came in disguise to Eriador, but he was only welcomed in Eregion by Celebrimbor and the Elven-smiths, who were interested in his advice on craftsmanship.Galadriel was not deceived, and rejected him, saying that he was not in the training of Aulë as he claimed."He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy". At the same time, without her knowledge, Sauron influenced Celebrimbor and his Gwaith-i-Mírdain against Galadriel and Celeborn.
This was established but not followed as who we believe is Sauron she is friends with.
quote:
You are taking works of lore and appendices with a loose timeline, shifting narratives with key characters, and making a cohesive 5 season story arc.
But specific timelines have been set and should not be changed. Outside of the fact they have left off Celeborn they still are taking major liberties by already introducing Islidur, his father, and now possibly one of the Istari.
Islidur whole story arc has been based on the defeat of Sauron, cutting the ring off, and next having it lost until the Hobbit. The ring that is basis for the LOTR trilogy. So what now we are to forget that arc as they reinvent him or are they basically ignoring the timeline and recreating the LOTR story on their version?
This post was edited on 9/11/22 at 10:37 am
Posted on 9/11/22 at 10:43 am to TideWarrior
quote:
This was established but not followed as who we believe is Sauron she is friends with.
I dont Love the theory but I’ll admit the evidence is there to support it.
It’s going to be weird if she shows up and KNOWS Halbrand is Sauron and they just don’t listen to her vs being just distrustful of Annatur.
Posted on 9/11/22 at 10:45 am to TideWarrior
Before the series even aired it was established the timeline was to be condensed in order to tell a cohesive story across 5 seasons. And this was approved by the Tolkien Estate.
I’m not a lore-head so I won’t get In the weeds on any of it, only in that a lot of Galadriels characterization and her place in the second age was ever shifting through Tolkien’s life according to Christopher, and that in doing so there are contradictions in her tale that any adapter will have to reconcile and take liberties. And that as such, it leaves room for interpretation of her character. And to claim there is one “right” way to characterize her seems to contradict those statements by Christopher.
But I’m also not here to defend this show as some pure adaptation, it’s not by accounts, nor does it need to be. As I have said from the onset, I look at this as I do any other adaption of a novel, mythical text, Shakespeare, comic book, or film reboot. Things will change in translation and due to creative vision to fit the format and tell the story it aims to tell. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. Whether it is Disney update Grimm fairytales for children or Nolan making Robin a cop and not a circus acrobat.
So far I think the show is solid, not spectacular, but good enough to look forward to seeing it through. And I guess if lore purity rises above all else, I understand people that can’t get past that.
I’m not a lore-head so I won’t get In the weeds on any of it, only in that a lot of Galadriels characterization and her place in the second age was ever shifting through Tolkien’s life according to Christopher, and that in doing so there are contradictions in her tale that any adapter will have to reconcile and take liberties. And that as such, it leaves room for interpretation of her character. And to claim there is one “right” way to characterize her seems to contradict those statements by Christopher.
But I’m also not here to defend this show as some pure adaptation, it’s not by accounts, nor does it need to be. As I have said from the onset, I look at this as I do any other adaption of a novel, mythical text, Shakespeare, comic book, or film reboot. Things will change in translation and due to creative vision to fit the format and tell the story it aims to tell. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. Whether it is Disney update Grimm fairytales for children or Nolan making Robin a cop and not a circus acrobat.
So far I think the show is solid, not spectacular, but good enough to look forward to seeing it through. And I guess if lore purity rises above all else, I understand people that can’t get past that.
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