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re: The Historical Argument for Keeping AD
Posted on 5/19/19 at 9:54 am to Crewz
Posted on 5/19/19 at 9:54 am to Crewz
Crewz, the reason people are so nervous here, me included, is they have no trust that AD would stay even if we did everything he wanted and had a deep playoff run this season
We’ve seen LeBron walk away from two organizations a total of three times after generally getting what he wanted and winning titles in two of those stops. And AD has LeBron’s boy repping him.
Running a team where your best player has one foot out the door tends to end poorly for the team.
I would have more trust in AD possibly re-upping like Paul George did if he hadn’t been such a bitch in how he handled his trade demand and the aftermath.
We’ve seen LeBron walk away from two organizations a total of three times after generally getting what he wanted and winning titles in two of those stops. And AD has LeBron’s boy repping him.
Running a team where your best player has one foot out the door tends to end poorly for the team.
I would have more trust in AD possibly re-upping like Paul George did if he hadn’t been such a bitch in how he handled his trade demand and the aftermath.
0
Posted on 5/19/19 at 9:55 am to geauxtigers87
quote:
if AD signs the supermax, fine keep him, if not trade his arse
This
Posted on 5/19/19 at 9:57 am to Crewz
quote:
Is Pascal Siakam's career being hurt by all this will Kawhi or won't he stuff?
Apples and oranges.
1) If we get back an outdated SG making nearly 30 a year for AD, we’re all going to be pissed off. Toronto knew they were taking a huge risk and paid the price of a team taking a huge risk. I would take Tatum/Brown/ or #3 over DeRozan at 30 per. Hypothetically, any team that traded for AD thinks it is going to keep him, as that team will likely being the one offering the best package based on its confidence.
2) Toronto is trying to convince Kawhi from a FRESH perspective. This is important. This wasn’t San Antonio trying to get Kawhi to stay after Manu/Pop/Parker took thinly veiled pot shots at him in the media. San Antonio convincing Kawhi is a much more similar scenario to NOLA than Toronto is. No matter how much Griffin tells AD that it’s different and a new direction/perspective, AD still has the previous 7 years of experience to tell him otherwise.
3) Siakam/Zion had/have an entirely different set of expectations on them. Siakam had the benefit of being able to develop organically without being pushed too fast or too hard under pressure. They were a 60ish win team with him playing 20 minutes a game in his second year. All eyes will be on Zion the second he steps onto the court, likely literally when the schedule comes out. I’d be very surprised if NOLA’s first game isn’t nationally televised.
ETA: are you just playing devil’s advocate or do you truly think this keeping AD into the regular season without securing an extra year at minimum is a good idea? If it’s the latter, I don’t see how you can have that opinion without admitting the MASSIVE risk associated with it.
- AD’s value pre-2019 free agency and AD’s value at the trade deadline will be different by themselves.
- AD doesn’t even have to suffer a catastrophic injury for him to be near worthless at the deadline.
This post was edited on 5/19/19 at 10:02 am
Posted on 5/19/19 at 9:59 am to Crewz
I’ll ignore your offhanded insults, as usual.
Letting AD go into a season without any extension of any kind is not “living in the gray”.
There’s no “insight or balance” here. I know what you’re TRYING to do. But you won’t do it. Sometimes a stance is so absurd that even people who are good at selling that sort of thing can’t.
I “live in the gray” for a living. This isn’t that. There’s no nuance to this.
If you don’t have any extension beyond this year there’s really nothing to even discuss.
Letting AD go into a season without any extension of any kind is not “living in the gray”.
There’s no “insight or balance” here. I know what you’re TRYING to do. But you won’t do it. Sometimes a stance is so absurd that even people who are good at selling that sort of thing can’t.
I “live in the gray” for a living. This isn’t that. There’s no nuance to this.
If you don’t have any extension beyond this year there’s really nothing to even discuss.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 10:00 am to Crewz
All about increasing risk tolerance if your ultimate goal is championships.
Let’s says odds of him staying are 25%, and AD, Zion and Jrue have let’s say 50% chance of making the finals over the next three years.
If ultimate goal is championships, you have to take that risk, right?
I would think the odds of obtaining another elite talent like Davis is much smaller than 25%. But the floor is much higher by playing it safe.
Let’s says odds of him staying are 25%, and AD, Zion and Jrue have let’s say 50% chance of making the finals over the next three years.
If ultimate goal is championships, you have to take that risk, right?
I would think the odds of obtaining another elite talent like Davis is much smaller than 25%. But the floor is much higher by playing it safe.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 10:09 am to PelicanFever
In what universe are you getting the math for “25%” coming from, without any kind of commitment beyond this season?
Let’s look at the evidence:
He changed agents to Klutch Sports and bought a house in LA this past offseason. The implication being that this plan was put into motion then.
Mid season, just two weeks before the deadline, he blew up the franchise by letting his new agency leak that he wanted out, and would only go to LAL, and didn’t even talk to ownership about it.
His father, once news that the Pels wanted to talk with Boston, told ESPN that AD would never sign with Boston in order to sabotage that and force the trade to LA.
He flipped off a home fan.
He deliberately wore a TShirt saying “that’s all folks” in the last game.
After Griffin was hired, his intermediaries leaked to Woj that he still wanted out.
After the Pels won the 1 pick, he let leak to multiple insiders that he still wanted out.
In what universe is it in any way rational or responsible or “a gray area” to go into the season without any future considerations?
Let’s look at the evidence:
He changed agents to Klutch Sports and bought a house in LA this past offseason. The implication being that this plan was put into motion then.
Mid season, just two weeks before the deadline, he blew up the franchise by letting his new agency leak that he wanted out, and would only go to LAL, and didn’t even talk to ownership about it.
His father, once news that the Pels wanted to talk with Boston, told ESPN that AD would never sign with Boston in order to sabotage that and force the trade to LA.
He flipped off a home fan.
He deliberately wore a TShirt saying “that’s all folks” in the last game.
After Griffin was hired, his intermediaries leaked to Woj that he still wanted out.
After the Pels won the 1 pick, he let leak to multiple insiders that he still wanted out.
In what universe is it in any way rational or responsible or “a gray area” to go into the season without any future considerations?
Posted on 5/19/19 at 10:16 am to Crewz
The argument is that AD is a top 5 NBA player. You dont trade those away unless you have to. IF you have to you try and get the best you can out of it. But what happens is people get tunnel vision of the trade and start to believe that the best possible trade scenario is the best possible scenario overall. Its not. Having a top 5 guy is. Why else would we have teams calling us and saying "pick what you want".
If you can get him resigned, fricking do it.
If you can get him resigned, fricking do it.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 10:23 am to Hester Carries
quote:
If you can get him resigned, fricking do it.
Obviously. But that’s not what MM is arguing here.
He’s arguing for no opt in, no extension, just random assurances from Davis that he will vaguely “keep an open mind” and hope that he’s so impressed he will sign with us next year.
That would be completely irresponsible to the future of the franchise, just as much as not keeping AD if he wanted to extend or opt in would be.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:01 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
He changed agents to Klutch Sports and bought a house in LA this past offseason. The implication being that this plan was put into motion then.
This is what I keep going back to. We made the playoffs, swept the Blazers and months later he’s planning his exit to LA. I think that’s part of the reason it got so contentious. To me, it’s pretty clear it was LA or bust for a long time. This was never just a mid season request for a trade. It was about forcing a trade to Lakers to be with LeBron, raise his stature, and cement his “legacy.” Space Jam 2 buddies! This is all about leverage. He showed his priorities long ago. He’s not going to be here.
This post was edited on 5/19/19 at 11:16 am
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:32 am to Crewz
As I said in a post a few days ago. The thought of him and Zion together is amazing. And if he opts in or signs an extention you HAVE to see how this works. But without those things I'm just less certain about the whole thing.
EVERYTHING about our off season and what Griffin has been trying to establish is culture, culture, culture. And I LOVE that because I agree with Crews and his views on building a great culture is sometimes just as important as the talent a team has. And having AD halfway in, and halfway out for a whole season, and once again forcing our players and coaches to have to answer AD questions all season isn't the culture I think anybody wants to have this upcoming season.
Look ultimately, nothing is gonna bring my excitement down. Griffin, Langdon, Zion, I'm HAPPY. AD stays or AD leaves I'm happy. My only concern is the culture we're trying to build being messed up when everything has been trending in such a great direction. "All in or all out". Not "all in or all out and whatever AD is".
EVERYTHING about our off season and what Griffin has been trying to establish is culture, culture, culture. And I LOVE that because I agree with Crews and his views on building a great culture is sometimes just as important as the talent a team has. And having AD halfway in, and halfway out for a whole season, and once again forcing our players and coaches to have to answer AD questions all season isn't the culture I think anybody wants to have this upcoming season.
Look ultimately, nothing is gonna bring my excitement down. Griffin, Langdon, Zion, I'm HAPPY. AD stays or AD leaves I'm happy. My only concern is the culture we're trying to build being messed up when everything has been trending in such a great direction. "All in or all out". Not "all in or all out and whatever AD is".
Posted on 5/19/19 at 12:59 pm to Crazed2APoint
I get the historical argument for keeping AD, but he doesn’t have the mental or intangible makeup of a typical superstar. Only way I keep him is if we get at least a 2 year commitment from him and again I’m wary of trusting a guy that has had 85 different types of injuries in 6 years. Trade him for multiple pieces. That way our future isn’t tied solely to AD’s health or attitude. This shouldn’t even be a discussion.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 3:08 pm to Crewz
Still need a good supporting cast, cant just be just two #1s and some scrubs
Posted on 5/19/19 at 3:36 pm to Crewz
Isn't 1984 35 years ago? That is when Olajuwon was drafted. If you go 40 years, there are 2 more guys in Magic and Worthy. This seems to disregard all the former 1st picks thay led their teams to the finals and that is a pretty good lost (Ewing, Shaq, Martin, Iverson, Howard..)..
Posted on 5/19/19 at 4:48 pm to Crewz
This is all kinda assuming Zion destroys the league his rookie and sophomore year.I think trading him is better for everyone from the front office to the fans to the lockerroom to zion himself.
My main interest is if Griffin is posturing that we keep him and if so in response what does clutch do to
interfere and help AD land somewhere where the roster hasn't been completely gutted to acquire AD ala melo to the knicks.
The idea of having a passive aggressive lame duck season from AD and then Zion watching a superstar walk away from the franchise worries me.
My main interest is if Griffin is posturing that we keep him and if so in response what does clutch do to
interfere and help AD land somewhere where the roster hasn't been completely gutted to acquire AD ala melo to the knicks.
The idea of having a passive aggressive lame duck season from AD and then Zion watching a superstar walk away from the franchise worries me.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 8:15 pm to TeachMeHowTaDante
quote:
I get the historical argument for keeping AD, but he doesn’t have the mental or intangible makeup of a typical superstar. Only way I keep him is if we get at least a 2 year commitment from him and again I’m wary of trusting a guy that has had 85 different types of injuries in 6 years. Trade him for multiple pieces. That way our future isn’t tied solely to AD’s health or attitude. This shouldn’t even be a discussion.
I mean his “makeup” was just fine the year before. He let Lebron get in his ear and spoil him some what. Plus I think AD has to realize that the move Lebron’s group tried to pull was to the benefit of Lebron more so than AD.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 9:59 pm to Crewz
I mentioned this weeks ago that if offers weren't good enough to just go into the season and see how it rolls. A lot of teams won't have the cap room to even sign AD like next year if we held on to him. You said 100% Griffin would never take that gamble. So why is it changing now?
Posted on 5/19/19 at 10:16 pm to Townedrunkard
My guess? Four letters - Zion.
Zion being our pick opens up the possibilities of what we can do without an immediate AD trade since we aren't flipping AD for him.
Cap this season is $109m. If Randle opts out, we're around $82m with holds for Zion and about 5 minimum salaries. If we can move Moore and/or Hill, that opens up space for a piece or two in free agency or via trade.
Zion being our pick opens up the possibilities of what we can do without an immediate AD trade since we aren't flipping AD for him.
Cap this season is $109m. If Randle opts out, we're around $82m with holds for Zion and about 5 minimum salaries. If we can move Moore and/or Hill, that opens up space for a piece or two in free agency or via trade.
Posted on 5/20/19 at 1:17 am to STEVED00
All last year proved to me was that AD needed Rondo and Cousins to guilt him into playing harder than he ever had in his life. After those 2 leaders left in Free Agency, AD realized he didn’t have the mental makeup to lead the team himself and he tried to force his way to the team with Rondo and Lebron so he could be 3rd leader again. And yes, I’m aware the organizational structure was a bit of a shitshow, but we still had the talent and pieces to be as good as last year. AD just didn’t want it badly enough. Effort wins games in the regular season and he gave almost zero.
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