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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Posted on 9/26/23 at 4:17 pm to
Posted by RuLSU
Chicago, IL
Member since Nov 2007
8117 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 4:17 pm to
I hate to tell you this, but there are about 10-15 Russian KIA videos for every 1 Ukrainian video.
Posted by StormyMcMan
USA
Member since Oct 2016
3757 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 4:30 pm to
quote:

hate to tell you this, but there are about 10-15 Russian KIA videos for every 1 Ukrainian video.



This is why selected videos don't really tell a story in isolation and most Western sources aren't showing the Ukrainian KIA videos.

Why baffles me is that posters like that will put together a list of all the reasons why Ukraine is losing and has lots of casualties but they fail to realize that you just need to switch Ukraine for Russia in those reasons and they have the exact same list of issues. That's why I tend to believe the ratio of casualties is very close to 1:1 regardless of who is currently on the offensive

Also just for ColtRanges sake, I actually posted the Admiral being alive earlier in this thread, but weren't you the one who swore up and down that the Ukrainian General was dead when he hadn't been seen for a week or two? Both sides rush to post "victorious" results and sometimes they are wrong. It's happened to both sides throughput the conflict. With all the said, I'll wait to Russian Admiral actually makes an in person appearance before saying he is alive with certainty, but I think there's enough doubt from a webinar photo to say he might still be alive as well. Neither side has produced definitive proof.
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
36329 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 4:43 pm to
quote:

It's a promulgated myth. Ukrainians die on par or in bigger numbers, especially since they have to do assaults.


That would be the logical assumption.
You’d think more Ukrainians would be KIA over this Summer.

However, the same logic should apply when Russia initially invaded and were repulsed in several sectors and when they tried their winter offensive and Bakmuth offensive.

The fact is we do not know which side has had the most KIA.
Posted by beerJeep
Louisiana
Member since Nov 2016
35186 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 4:49 pm to
quote:

I could seriously do this for hours but I just don't care about Ukraine enough.


You literally created an account to talk about Ukraine
Posted by Philzilla
Member since Nov 2011
1432 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 4:50 pm to
quote:

The fact is we do not know which side has had the most KIA.

We know which side can sustain casualties longer.
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
25936 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 4:53 pm to
quote:

We know which side can sustain casualties longer.


Actually, we do not. We know which side has more warm bodies but we don't know which side has the most willpower.
Posted by Philzilla
Member since Nov 2011
1432 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 4:55 pm to
quote:

willpower

Never won a war.
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
25936 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 4:55 pm to
quote:


Never won a war.


But the lack of has lost a LOT of them and that was my point.
Posted by StormyMcMan
USA
Member since Oct 2016
3757 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 4:58 pm to
quote:

quote:
willpower

Never won a war


Let's talk about Vietnam War or the Russian invasion of Afghanistan if you think willpower hasn't impacted the battlefield result before
Posted by No Colors
Sandbar
Member since Sep 2010
10557 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 5:08 pm to
quote:

willpower

Never won a war.


I just hope this jewel comes from a place of genuine ignorance. Because if you ever paid for a history class, you got robbed.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 5:12 pm to
quote:

hate to tell you this, but there are about 10-15 Russian KIA videos for every 1 Ukrainian video.


Pretty sure it’s illegal in Ukraine to talk about the casualties
Posted by No Colors
Sandbar
Member since Sep 2010
10557 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 5:13 pm to
Ok. Just wondering if you would expound on exactly how you know which statements are lies and which are the truth.

For instance, you show the video of the Cmdr of the BSL that was published today as proof he is still alive. But how do you know that video is recent? Media reports? The same media reports that said he was dead, and others say he was alive. And you use the ones saying he was alive as proof that the ones saying he was dead are lies?

Remember when the Moskva sank and Russia immediately published video of the crew all lined up to get medals? And the Mothers group was saying: "The Navy is telling us our sons were all rescued, and showed us this video. But none of them are answering their cell phones...."

I mean, it sounds like you are just choosing to believe the ones you want to believe. Just like most other posters on here.
Posted by WeeWee
Member since Aug 2012
40221 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 6:26 pm to
quote:

The Chkalovsky military airfield near Moscow, reportedly, right now.


LINK

Does anyone else find it hilarious that the world's 2nd best military can't protect its own capital?
Posted by Errerrerrwere
Member since Aug 2015
38466 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 6:31 pm to
And Poland is...

















Out!















Posted by StormyMcMan
USA
Member since Oct 2016
3757 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 6:31 pm to
Russia MFA posts about Armenia and a detailed interpretation of it

quote:

We are convinced that the Armenian leadership is making a huge mistake by deliberately attempting to sever Armenia's multifaceted and centuries-old ties with Russia, making the country a hostage to Western geopolitical games.

Read in full ?? is.gd/e1uHCe

LINK

quote:

The Russian Foreign Ministry has released an extraordinary statement on what is happening in Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) and Armenia.

What's more, the Russian MFA has effectively confirmed that Nikol Pashinyan has treasonously colluded to undermine the sovereignty of Artsakh and the security of Armenia, leading to the ethnic cleansing of over a hundred thousand ethnic Armenians from their millennia-old homeland in favor of appeasing Western powers.

One thing to note is how pointed the statement is, quite unusual for any diplomatic text, especially one from the Russians.

Some highlights:

"Had Nikol Pashinyan agreed to a ceasefire a few weeks earlier, the defeat would have been less severe."

Within a few weeks of the start of the 2020 War, it became clear to anyone not dependent on the Pashinyan regime's own atrocious misinformation, that Armenia was either outgunned, outplanned, and/or outmaneuvered.

Nevertheless, Pashinyan, inexplicably, kept pushing on, though only in speech, not in action. He kept calling for recruits, but not engaging the standing army, or the reserves; he kept calling for volunteers to fight and die in a great patriotic war, while not availing Armenia of the weaponry at its disposal. Groups of men were being massacred in by drones, with no apparent change in Armenian strategy.

Most befuddling of all was that there seemed to be no urgency in stopping the bloodbath. With the Russian MFA's statement, it has become clear that Pashinyan prolonged the war unnecessarily, cost the lives of thousands more young Armenian men, lost Shushi, and made it practically impossible for Artsakh to recuperate from the defeat.

"In regional affairs, instead of adhering to the gentlemen's agreement reached by the leaders of Russia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia in November 2020 to leave the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh's status to future generations, Nikol Pashinyan succumbed to Western influence."

This is a bombshell. The Russian MFA is suggesting that there was an agreement, including with Azerbaijan, that the issue was not to be immediately resolved, and that Pashinyan reneged on his commitment, and circumvented both Russia and Azerbaijan to pursue an alternate path with parties in the West that were not present at the time of the ceasefire.

Extraordinary.

"In Prague and Brussels the decision was made to act based on the 1991 Alma-Ata Declaration by recognising Azerbaijan's sovereignty over Nagorno-Karabakh. This fact fundamentally altered the circumstances that were in place when the trilateral declaration of November 9, 2020 was signed, as well as the situation of the Russian peacekeeping contingent."

In Pashinyan's ploy to "recognize" that Azerbaijan has a right to Artsakh, which he cannot unilaterally do, he obviated the role of the Russian peacekeepers whose presence was contingent on a pending final agreement between the parties. If Artsakh was considered a part of Azerbaijan according to Pashinyan, then that implied that the status of Artsakh was settled, thus leading to Azerbaijan's belief that it was justified in reclaiming territory that it considered its own, which resulted in military action to "retake" the territory, solely precipitated by Pashinyan indicating to Azerbaijan through his statement that Armenia would not intervene.

"In particular, Nikol Pashinyan failed to sign the decision agreed by all six foreign ministers to deploy a CSTO observer mission to the areas bordering on Azerbaijan."

What is the last thing one would want if they wanted to help someone steal something if not a group of trained eyes watching? Pashinyan loudly criticized the CSTO, but apparently refused to allow the stationing of a CSTO mission to monitor border areas, many of which have, since 2020, come under fire, attack, and occupation by Azerbaijan.

It is important to note here that this has to do with Armenia's security, not Artsakh's.

"The situation was further exacerbated by Armenia's persistent denial of the continued presence of Armenian armed formations in Nagorno-Karabakh after November 9, 2020, which became one of the key reasons for the escalation in September."

This is absolutely incredible. Russia is unequivocally saying that Armenia prevented Armenians from defending themselves through military units, thus leaving them utterly defenseless when Azerbaijan attacked yet again in September.

Again: Pashinyan and his government actively neutered a potential Armenian defense against another Azerbaijani attack.

"Notably, during the above meetings in Prague and Brussels under the auspices of the European Union, the Prime Minister of Armenia acknowledged Azerbaijan's territorial integrity, but failed to address the rights and safety of the Karabakh Armenians."

Russia is saying in no uncertain terms that Pashinyan abandoned Artsakh's Armenians, while giving a free pass to Azerbaijan, which the latter then used to launch a military operation that not only killed more Armenians, but also sealed Art

LINK
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
25936 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 6:37 pm to
quote:

Does anyone else find it hilarious that the world's 2nd best military can't protect its own capital?


This goes back directly to my point about willpower. These are the types of attacks that directly impact resolve. They are a double-edged sword though because you have to understand the psyche of the opponent to divine what impact it has. All the infrastructure and residential attacks Russia carried out didn't break the will of the Ukrainians in large part because it was a clear existential crisis to them. This is why Russian stay media, the Duma members, and Putin do everything they can to convince the populace that it is an existential crisis for them.
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
23918 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 6:42 pm to
quote:

This is why Russian stay media, the Duma members, and Putin do everything they can to convince the populace that it is an existential crisis for them.

That may have factored into the reluctance to support or facilitate direct attacks on Russian territory. At this stage, however, that reluctance is no longer justified.
Posted by OutsideObserver
Oceania.
Member since Dec 2022
773 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 6:54 pm to
quote:

Ok. Just wondering if you would expound on exactly how you know which statements are lies and which are the truth.

For instance, you show the video of the Cmdr of the BSL that was published today as proof he is still alive. But how do you know that video is recent? Media reports? The same media reports that said he was dead, and others say he was alive. And you use the ones saying he was alive as proof that the ones saying he was dead are lies?

Remember when the Moskva sank and Russia immediately published video of the crew all lined up to get medals? And the Mothers group was saying: "The Navy is telling us our sons were all rescued, and showed us this video. But none of them are answering their cell phones...."

I mean, it sounds like you are just choosing to believe the ones you want to believe. Just like most other posters on here.


Both sides (and those supporting them) have been guilty of false claims and incorrect statements and it isn't a situation that is going to change since it is part of any conflict. How pervasive disinformation has been in this conflict though is something that needs to be considered seriously by both society and the relevant institutions, the division it is creating is a necessary ingredient to undermine much of the progress made over much of the last century.

Traditional news media are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They are fighting to stay relevant in the age of social and digital media but have a legacy of fact checking to live up to. When they don't do this adequately they quickly get howled down (though in honesty they did create the trial by public opinion over the last several decades).

On the social media side fluidity of the war in terms of information access (despite being a slow grind for significant portions) is unprecedented and everyone races to get their story out first regardless of their motivations. Better OSINT communities for both sides make this somewhat easier by providing quick and adequate fact checking on some sectors of the conflict, usually strike locations, however these are not the easiest to find though unless you know where, or have the desire, to search for them. This puts much of the onus for fact checking on consumers rather than the institutions or reporters.

Problematically many consumers tune out the broader picture and patterns that emerge though to focus on the latest sound bite story. This can be due to information overload, time constraints, confirmation bias, or just not wanting to bother because they don't think it is relevant enough.

Posted by Hateradedrink
Member since May 2023
1343 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 7:19 pm to
share a link to what you’re talking about instead of assuming everyone has read the same gatewaypundit or zerohedge article as you
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
36329 posts
Posted on 9/26/23 at 7:32 pm to
quote:

Never won a war.


Vietnam
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