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re: What would you say to a Yazidi woman raped by ISIS who wanted an abortion?
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:12 pm to Roger Klarvin
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:12 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
The reality is that, as it stands, his beliefs effect only a small number of people and are nonviolent. I think comparing that to an Islamic extremist who performs honor killings and sets off bombs in school buildings is unjustified.
Christianity has been a nonviolent religion for quite some time though. Islam is violent. If he was born in a goat pin in Afghanistan, I could certainly see him with a suicide bomb strapped to his chest.
1
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:15 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
His interpretation of God's Word, if you don't mind.
Let's say for a second it's THE ONLY interpretation of God's Word. I would think that a man like you would put his own daughter's well being over God's Word. It's what I think separates good people from pious dickheads like him. He puts God's Word over his daughter, which I think is a sign of a horrible father.
This post was edited on 12/14/14 at 4:17 pm
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:17 pm to OMLandshark
Probably, but like I said I wont judge people based on what they might have done. Maybe you or I would be an extremist if we were born into that world.
I agree that western civilization has kept christianity in check though.
I agree that western civilization has kept christianity in check though.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:20 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
If God's Word was a bit more extreme, then I see no reason he wouldn't carry it out like most people who claim they would always obey God's Word.
I see your point.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:21 pm to mahdragonz
quote:
Lots of innocents die all the time for the expediency of others.
And it's always wrong.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:29 pm to uway
quote:
And it's always wrong.
If this were even close to being true you'd see the same kind of protestors at army recruiting posts as you would at abortion clinics.
American people don't have a problem with innocents dying.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:30 pm to Keltic Tiger
quote:You are right; I have not experienced what she has gone through so I don't know the extent of the trauma she has undergone. As a Christian, I am obligated to believe the words and promises of God and not rely upon my own experiences to determine truth about how I should act in this life. If you are a Christian, surely you can show me where I am wrong to condemn abortion in this instance from someplace other than your emotions.
FooManChoo, my sister has not been thrown a "curveball, nor is she going through "such trials". To repeat, you & those who judge others based on their beliefs have no clue what the real world is like out there. You seek to trivialize what she has been going through for several yrs now & you have NO IDEA what you are talking about real life.
quote:Everyone is a sinner. I am a sinner and am probably a worse sinner than your sister. However sin isn't determined by some sort of personal check list that every person has; it is based on the law of God. If I believe that abortion is a sin, it is because I believe it is against the law and character of God.
She may well be a "sinner", but frick you & your judgemental arse for saying she is a sinner in your eyes for this abortion.
quote:I'm curious if you talked to any or many women who actually decided to keep their children. It sounds like you only talked to those who chose abortion, but that may not be the case, so I'm curious if any you talked to gave birth and still had those feelings of disgust and hatred towards the children.
You claim "many women come to love & care" for their rape babies, what facts do you have to back up your claim? I belong to several victims of rape groups around the country, my focus being on those who were impregnated as a result. And in talking to literally several hundred of such victims, I have found not one who even comes close to sharing this view. Roughly 20% said that they would have committed suicide rather than be forced to have their rapist's child. None wanted anything to do with having such a baby. None.
I have read several articles highlighting specific cases where children were produced from rape and where the mothers loved the children. This is one such article. It isn't representative of all women, obviously, but my point initially was that a child conceived through rape is not always viewed as some sort of evil, parasitic reminder of a traumatic event, but are sometimes actually loved and cared for.
quote:I know this is an emotional issue for you, personally, but I'm simply providing my opinion about abortion as it concerns rape in a public, online discussion forum.
But as I said, I have no problem with you having your own beliefs,whatever they may or may not be. Just quit trying to force your beliefs on others; quit judging others who do not share your beliefs. Just mind your own business for a change.
You say you don't have a problem with what I believe, but clearly you do. You felt it necessary to single me out (not really hard to do, since I seem to be the only one on this side of the fence still discussing the issue) to correct my opinions in light of your own experiences and observations. You even said "f*** you" to me for my beliefs, which are "judgmental" in nature since they are saying that the action your sister took is immoral and wrong. It is my belief that such an act is wrong, and since you disagree, you take my belief personally and want me to keep quiet.
I'm sorry that your sister and your family had to experience such an awful event. I wish it never happened to her and that she didn't have to be put in such a position. However, I have my own beliefs about the topic of abortion and sharing them in a public forum is not getting in to your business at all. You freely shared that information and I am freely sharing information about myself and my beliefs. We can agree to disagree about this topic, but I'm trying to "judge" anyone; only share my views, which I believe are based on the word of God.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:31 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
As a Christian, I am obligated to believe the words and promises of God and not rely upon my own experiences to determine truth about how I should act in this life.
That really is an incredible sentence to read and ponder.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:34 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Let's say for a second it's THE ONLY interpretation of God's Word. I would think that a man like you would put his own daughter's well being over God's Word. It's what I think separates good people from pious dickheads like him. He puts God's Word over his daughter, which I think is a sign of a horrible father.
That would be perfectly justifiable if one presupposes that God's Word is not God's Word. However if God's Word were in fact true, as FooManChoo believes, then it would be incorrect to put your daughter over it. The greatest good, if God's Word was truly God's Word, would be God Himself. The first scenario is justifiable for God's Word would be false. To put something false over a loved one would be heinous.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:34 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:I seriously wish we weren't; it's not productive to the real discussion of abortion in the case of rape.
Are we seriously debating the moral merit of aborting the antichrist?
quote:How is it "selectively enforced"? I'm talking specifically about the hypothetical case of someone giving birth to the spawn of Satan. I thought that was clear.
What a dangerous philosophy to live by if you actually applied this logic to every aspect of your life.
Of course, you obviously dont do that since you wouldnt have lived long enough to be sitting here talking with us if you did. It's still interesting that you have the audacity to claim such a philosophy even though it is selectively enforced.
Give me a different scenario and I'll discuss that. All of this rolls up into my overall worldview, but we are talking about specific application. Give me one where you think my application would be inconsistent. Thanks in advance.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:38 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Of course it is.
I seriously wish we weren't; it's not productive to the real discussion of abortion in the case of rape.
Your responses have made that clear.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:47 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
How is it "selectively enforced"?
When you are in a motor vehicle, I assume you wear a seatbelt. You clearly do not simply put it in God's hands, you take tangible measures which you KNOW work to protect yourself apart from God. Then when you get in a wreck, you say God saved you abd not the seatbelt.
Im also assuming you dont let your small children stay home by themselves. God shoukd just protect them if you pray, right? No need for a sitter unless you have doubt that they would be protected.
And one day if you get cancer, you wont just put it in God's hands. You'll seek treatment from modern medicine and, if you survive, you'll give God all the credit.
Strangely, God always seems to need help from us to accomplish good outcomes. The only time his will doesnt involve human intervention, it turns out poorly for us.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:55 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:Y'all enjoy having me on this side of the argument?
Are we seriously debating the moral merit of aborting the antichrist?
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:57 pm to NC_Tigah
Oh you
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:58 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:Not quite. I know all too well the types of households you are talking about. Generally speaking, those tend to be very legalistic households, with rules that range from not cutting your hair (for girls) to not listening to music with a certain sort of beat.
Typically, kids raised in homes like the one you describe rebel the hardest in their late teens and twenties. The "preacher's daughter" is an old cliche, but there is some truth to it.
But even parents who raise their kids right with a good mix of "should not" and "can't" rules still have to deal with sin and there's nothing you can do to guarantee that children won't do bad things. My goal is to teach my kids why they shouldn't do certain things so that they understand it; not just hear a bunch of rules that don't necessarily make any sense to them.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 5:02 pm to boosiebadazz
quote:I'm not talking about legislation. I'm talking about the act, itself. There are a few here saying that because I don't condone abortion that I wouldn't be giving support at all to my daughter in the hypothetical situation.
I don't think I've heard one person call for a law that says a baby conceived by rape has to be aborted. All we're saying is it should be the choice of the rape victim as to whether or not she wants to keep the baby and carry the baby to term. You're the one trying to deny her that choice. I don't think anyone said abortion is the end-all, be-all and she'll be fully healed after.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 5:03 pm to FooManChoo
Would you support a law that bans abortion regardless of the extenuating circumstances?
Posted on 12/14/14 at 5:05 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Not quite.
Yes quite
Posted on 12/14/14 at 5:15 pm to mahdragonz
quote:It sounds like you talked to a lot of women who chose to abort their pregnancies. Did you happen to meet any that decided to keep them? If so, how did they feel? Just curious.
For reasons I don't want to go into here, I am also invested in sexual abuse survivors help groups, although I've come to know more women and men who have suffered trauma from their own family or close friends of their family.
I can also state, without question, I have never met a woman who was raped and subsequently impregnated that she wishes she had the baby. Rape is a despicable act, and it is the most corrosive act that can happen to a person and survive.
quote:What part of my world is imaginary? I have convictions and I stick to them. While rape resulting in pregnancy isn't one of those things I've had to experience, there are a lot of things that have challenged my worldview over time and I have stuck with my principles because they aren't experience-driven.
People who live in their imaginary worlds do so at a great cost to themselves. Tell me, what exactly what would you tell a woman who's own father raped her to do when she found out she was pregnant? That's real life.
quote:That sounds like a terrible thing to have to go through. Without going into additional detail at this time, I would just saying that I think she should have gone through with the pregnancy if her life was not in danger.
I've also spoken at length with a woman who had a child with their brain growing without a skull. She terminated when 7 months pregnant and I have nothing but compassion for her. Should she have given birth to a child to suffer and die? Would it have been worth it to risk her reproductive organs - she later had a healthy baby - to delver a dying child?
quote:I believe that killing the child is still taking its life. It may not be as dramatic as someone shooting children in a school, but I still believe the end result is the same. I can certainly feel more pity or sympathy for the woman who makes such a choice compared to someone who barges into a school with guns blazing, but I still believe that murder is murder.
Abortion is not the taking of a life as you would think of it in a school shooting - whoever posted that gruesome image.
quote:I understand why people could see abortion as a compassionate thing, but I still view taking an innocent child's life as an immoral action if it isn't to protect the life of the mother. Regardless of how compassionate it seems, it is still killing the child. You could use that same argument for children who are outside the womb who live in terrible situations. A child goes blind after a few years? Go ahead and put them out of their misery. Some might argue that having a peanut allergy is cause enough to put a child out of its misery, since it won't be able to enjoy the delicious taste of a Snickers. Yes, those are far-fetched examples, but depending on who you talk to, they aren't outside the realm of possibility if we took that logic to its conclusion.
Abortion, for rape victims and those who are not ready to be parents, should be seen as a compassionate choice. It is more akin to taking someone off of life support. And through my faith group I've worked with many men and who who find it difficult to understand that abortion is not wrong, is not a sin, and is a preferable choice in many many situations.
quote:So what you're saying is that you're cool with people who are pro-life because they are hypocrites? Understood.
I am not that concerned with people who boast publicly that they are pro life. Because most likely they have supported an abortion when it was convenient to them.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 5:17 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
That's a bit much, I hardly think opposing abortion for rape victim is the equivalent of stoning women to death for exposing their ankles.
Besides, if you honestly believe abortion is murder then it is logically and morally inconsistent to make exceptions for rape.
Oh I disagree. I truly believe he would give his daughter up to the mob if skygod told him too. You know, like Lot.
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