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re: What would you say to a Yazidi woman raped by ISIS who wanted an abortion?
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:10 pm to FooManChoo
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:10 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
FooManChoo
I feel that you're a victim of letting your religious beliefs and spiritual dogma completely overrule any sense of, pragmatism, reality and of the real world and thus has turned you into probably the most hardcore pro lifer ever known to this board.
There's nothing wrong with being that focused on your beliefs but it's just misplaced and certainly should not be forced on others and and set as public policy in any way wherever it may be.
2
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:14 pm to mahdragonz
quote:Let's try again . . .
Ok, so all of this about gods law is pretty not accurate.
Gods law is that the Old Testament is what is part of Jewish faith and in that case, the soul doesn't enter the body until birth. That's why the Jewish religion doesn't have a problem with abortion.
The New Testament says nothing about abortion.
Everything that is being said about gods will is inaccurate.
Link?
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:20 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Even in tragedy, I believe God should be praised, since it is said that God works all things for the good of those who love Him
And this is really the point I'm getting at. The kind of person who can believe this cannot be reasoned with. If you can convince yourself that children starving to death as parasites ravage their intestines in Africa is part of God's good will, then it simply is not possible to rationally debate things.
It's relevant to this thread because we now sit here at 17 pages and it really seems pointless when you say things like this. Why even bother if you openly admit your position on matters such as these cannot and will not be changed? If no amount of debate, evidence and rational thought provocation can make you even so much as second guess things, why waste your time or ours?
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:24 pm to Roger Klarvin
Oh I don't think anyone is trying to debate with foo.
We recognize that there is no debate with an ultra-christian like he professes to be.
All we can do is hope that the damage he causes to the people around him is limited.
I will however be eager to check in with him when his daughter reaches 18 and has given him the shiny middle finger.
Because that is coming.
We recognize that there is no debate with an ultra-christian like he professes to be.
All we can do is hope that the damage he causes to the people around him is limited.
I will however be eager to check in with him when his daughter reaches 18 and has given him the shiny middle finger.
Because that is coming.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:27 pm to Sentrius
quote:
feel that you're a victim of letting your religious beliefs and spiritual dogma completely overrule any sense of, pragmatism, reality and of the real world and thus has turned you into probably the most hardcore pro lifer ever known to this board.
The problem is that his version of Christianity doesn't allow for him to incorporate his knowledge and experience regarding reality because it is inherently incompatible with reality. He denies the theory of evolution and believes in the Exodus, Jonah and a literal great flood. Once you start believing that a man can live inside the belly of a fish for days, you can literally believe anything without question because you have shown you are able to completely dissociate your beliefs from what you know about the world. It's the same with this issue, he cannot even consider real world scenarios because to do so would contradict his white and black view of the world generated by his religious belief.
On one hand his devotion to a cause, and his consistency within that cause, are laudable. The Christians who believe abortion is murder but make exceptions for rape and incest are hypocritical and inconsistent.
On the other hand, the ideas that he supports are simply not rooted in anything resembling reality. He has a view of the world which is simply inaccurate, and his claims about a child being equivalent to a three month old fetus are scientifically flawed in every way imaginable.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:27 pm to Roger Klarvin
LINK
An unborn fetus in Jewish law is not considered a person
Jewish Bioethics
nefesh, lit. “soul”) until it has been born. The fetus is regarded as a part of the mother’s body and not a separate being until it begins to egress from the womb during parturition (childbirth). In fact, until forty days after conception, the fertilized egg is considered as “mere fluid.” These facts form the basis for the Jewish legal view on abortion. Biblical, talmudic, and rabbinic support for these statements will now be presented.
An unborn fetus in Jewish law is not considered a person
Jewish Bioethics
nefesh, lit. “soul”) until it has been born. The fetus is regarded as a part of the mother’s body and not a separate being until it begins to egress from the womb during parturition (childbirth). In fact, until forty days after conception, the fertilized egg is considered as “mere fluid.” These facts form the basis for the Jewish legal view on abortion. Biblical, talmudic, and rabbinic support for these statements will now be presented.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:29 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
And this is really the point I'm getting at. The kind of person who can believe this cannot be reasoned with. If you can convince yourself that children starving to death as parasites ravage their intestines in Africa is part of God's good will, then it simply is not possible to rationally debate things.
It's relevant to this thread because we now sit here at 17 pages and it really seems pointless when you say things like this. Why even bother if you openly admit your position on matters such as these cannot and will not be changed? If no amount of debate, evidence and rational thought provocation can make you even so much as second guess things, why waste your time or ours?
This is what I was getting at a couple posts above yours.
Religious people have the most iron hard beliefs out of all the subgroups of humanity IMO. He's probably a minority within the evangelical community that is this dedicated and has no sense of pragmatism on a topic like abortion, especially when you throw in exceptions like rape into the mix. This thread is just a soapbox to him.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:31 pm to asurob1
quote:
Oh I don't think anyone is trying to debate with foo.
I would genuinely hope he at least begins to think about things because of debates like this. I was once not so very different from him. I had more inherent doubts than he appears to, but I absolutely believed at one time those doubts were Satan trying to win my soul.
The world is better off when people truly think about what they believe. Not just within the context of that belief, but considering for a moment that they could be wrong.
quote:
I will however be eager to check in with him when his daughter reaches 18 and has given him the shiny middle finger.
I would hate to see a family fall apart over religion. I have a great relationship with my family even though they are religious. Just because his daughter may not come to believe as he does doesn't mean she has to hate him.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:36 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
I would hate to see a family fall apart over religion. I have a great relationship with my family even though they are religious. Just because his daughter may not come to believe as he does doesn't mean she has to hate him.
I would hope that too...but I have witnessed first hand what divisions like this between beliefs can cause.
It took years for my ex and my daughter to return to speaking terms.
All because of religious dogma.
This post was edited on 12/14/14 at 6:37 pm
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:44 pm to asurob1
I honestly don't think I personally know of a situation where a family fell apart like that due t religion as the primary factor. It's almost always abuse, neglect, infidelity or serious criminal activity in my experience.
I feel like when push comes to shove, the love parents KNOW they feel for their kids usually outweighs the beliefs they THINK are true and they reconcile in some way to keep the kids in their life.
I feel like when push comes to shove, the love parents KNOW they feel for their kids usually outweighs the beliefs they THINK are true and they reconcile in some way to keep the kids in their life.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:48 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
The problem is that his version of Christianity doesn't allow for him to incorporate his knowledge and experience regarding reality because it is inherently incompatible with reality. He denies the theory of evolution and believes in the Exodus, Jonah and a literal great flood. Once you start believing that a man can live inside the belly of a fish for days, you can literally believe anything without question because you have shown you are able to completely dissociate your beliefs from what you know about the world. It's the same with this issue, he cannot even consider real world scenarios because to do so would contradict his white and black view of the world generated by his religious belief.
Yep.
Having this strong of a belief in your faith and not questioning it at all is one of the most dangerous and harmful things you can do to yourself. It's counter productive.
quote:
On one hand his devotion to a cause, and his consistency within that cause, are laudable
And he's done it being completely civil and refraining from insults and negative posts. That's a man that's very secure in himself and his beliefs no matter how misplaced or misguided we think it may be. That's to be commended.
quote:
The Christians who believe abortion is murder but make exceptions for rape and incest are hypocritical and inconsistent.
Yep. Foo is actually a very ideologically consistent Christian just on this topic alone. He's making perfect logical sense. We just disagree with that argument.
But its for this reason alone why I'm not very religious and still abhor abortion but don't consider it murder, or at least murder with a very malicious and premeditated intent like some random thug in North BR killing you to get your money.
quote:
On the other hand, the ideas that he supports are simply not rooted in anything resembling reality.
A lack of pragmatism is a very dangerous thing and arguments like foo's only gives abortionists more ammo to increase abortion on demand to a rate where it's morally deficient.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:57 pm to Sentrius
I agree about abortion, as I've said before I find abortion very troubling but not because I view a young fetus as being equivalent to you and me. I just don't believe a society should make the practice of widespread abortion the norm, it breeds irresponsibility and minimizes the significance of having kids.
The act of getting pregnant is so biologically magnificent, and the ability to experience conscious existence is so incomprehensibly awesome to me, that ending a pregnancy for what is usually just convenience seems so wasteful.
The act of getting pregnant is so biologically magnificent, and the ability to experience conscious existence is so incomprehensibly awesome to me, that ending a pregnancy for what is usually just convenience seems so wasteful.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 7:03 pm to Roger Klarvin
if I have stated it once here I have stated it a thousand times.
I could care less what a woman chooses to do with her fetus.
abort.
give up for adoption
or keep and raise till 18.
But she gets to make that choice and no one else.
I could care less what a woman chooses to do with her fetus.
abort.
give up for adoption
or keep and raise till 18.
But she gets to make that choice and no one else.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 7:11 pm to asurob1
I find that line of thinking flawed because the woman's body isnt the only thing at stake in this scenario. This isnt like having heart surgery or smoking weed, her decision has direct physical ramifications on a third party. Additionally, the father played just as big a role in that conception and has no say in the matter, even though he will always be expected and if needed forced by law to support the child.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 7:12 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
I just don't believe a society should make the practice of widespread abortion the norm, it breeds irresponsibility and minimizes the significance of having kids.
quote:
The act of getting pregnant is so biologically magnificent, and the ability to experience conscious existence is so incomprehensibly awesome to me, that ending a pregnancy for what is usually just convenience seems so wasteful.
Yep.
Seeing a little life grow to full term is just an incredibly beautiful and awesome thing to see and people who want to throw that away for convenience are just people I do not want to associate with as they are abandoning personal responsibility and being very cold and callous.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 7:20 pm to Sentrius
But a fetus doesn't have a soul.
It's just your warped thinking that suggests it does.
Jesus would have believed in Talmudic law and believed a fetus doesn't have a soul.
It's just your warped thinking that suggests it does.
Jesus would have believed in Talmudic law and believed a fetus doesn't have a soul.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 7:22 pm to mahdragonz
I have no reason to believe anyone has a soul.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 7:32 pm to mahdragonz
quote:
But a fetus doesn't have a soul.
It's just your warped thinking that suggests it does.
WTF?
I didn't say anything about a soul, fetus or non-fetus.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 7:46 pm to asurob1
!!!!a~~
quote:That is a goal of being a parent. Being a Christian parent means preparing them to survive in a sinful world and glorify God by how you live your life.
Your goal should be to prepare them to survive in the real world.
quote:I know what the human condition is like. I know what sin is and what it does because I'm a sinner, myself. My kids will do their share of bad behavior but having barriers and boundaries is necessary. What's most important is telling them why those things are needed. "Because I said so" is not an acceptable reason for telling my kids not to do something.
As my ultra-christian ex-wife discovered the hard way. Telling a kid what not to do is basically giving them the road map of things to try.
But you will learn that soon enough...the hard way.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 7:50 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
I find that line of thinking flawed because the woman's body isnt the only thing at stake in this scenario.
we completely disagree.
It truly is the only thing at stake here.
Until they come up with a way for fetuses to live outside of a womb, only the woman's opinion matters what happens with said fetus.
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