re: What would you say to a Yazidi woman raped by ISIS who wanted an abortion?

What one person calls a mothers emotions are pure logic to the woman herself.

It is more likely the pregnancy will harm her than an abortion.

It's only "emotional" when you don't want women to use logic.

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I didn't put words in your mouth and I apologize if it seemed that I was.

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No biggie I probably just misread what you said.

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I don't believe killing an unborn child for convenience should be any more of a choice than killing a child outside of the womb.

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I understand that argument, but as I see it, it only goes one level deep.

In the grand scheme of things a woman who aborts her rape progeny is in a much better position to have children with a real shot later on. If we are going to speculate about the potential value of the rape baby, shouldn't we also speculate about the opportunity costs associated with taking a rape baby to term? What about all the children that aren't conceived because of rape babies?

I don't think its necessarily about convenience. Its about a lot more than that. Its about improving future prospects. Its about deciding with whom you want to have a child. Choosing your genetic partner. Its about improving the outcomes of your future children, you know, the ones you chose to have. Its about getting rid of the psycho rapist/terrorist DNA that infected your body. Its about a lot of things.

Some women might take the baby to term. That is an option that is feasible here in America. Its not feasible in other parts of the world. And in some places, like Afghanistan, there is no choice. If you are raped and impregnated, you get to have the baby and nobody will marry you. Your kids beg in the street and never receive an education. I can almost guarantee that you don't have a clue what level of suffering those women and children go through. Its pains me to think that somebody might call one of those women selfish for wanting to have a kid WHO ACTUALLY HAS A SHOT to do something for the family.


In the end we will never agree on this. I understand that and truthfully, we will both sleep well at night despite knowing that there is someone on the other end of the internet that disagrees with our respective opinions. I wish you all the best, but agree to disagree.

It is NOT an emotional issue.

It is a physical one. Why should a woman be forced to distort her body against her will?

Would you enjoy forcibly having surgery where a uterus and vagina were implanted in you without anesthesia and give birth.

You'd be ok with that?

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It's also easy to advocate for the taking of a human life when you know that there is a 0% chance that can happening to you because of the fact that your mother decided that you wouldn't be too much of a burden to give birth to.

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Tf? This is a terrible analogy. I wasnt conceived via rape, and if I did happen to be one of those zygotes I probably wouldn't be here today. For very good reason.

You know what I've learned about abortion through my church?

There are a hell of a lot of people who have had abortions. And many of them are publicly pro life.

They all follow the script of abortions should only be allowed for three reasons: rape, incest, and my own.

You don't want to talk about extremes but everyone believes --their situation-- is the extreme.

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I understand that argument, but as I see it, it only goes one level deep.

In the grand scheme of things a woman who aborts her rape progeny is in a much better position to have children with a real shot later on. If we are going to speculate about the potential value of the rape baby, shouldn't we also speculate about the opportunity costs associated with taking a rape baby to term? What about all the children that aren't conceived because of rape babies?

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I think this is another argument for "quality of life" in leu of simply "life". I think a "rape baby" should have a shot at life just like a baby conceived from a one-night stand or a baby conceived by a married couple in a stable relationship.

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I don't think its necessarily about convenience. Its about a lot more than that. Its about improving future prospects. Its about deciding with whom you want to have a child. Choosing your genetic partner. Its about improving the outcomes of your future children, you know, the ones you chose to have. Its about getting rid of the psycho rapist/terrorist DNA that infected your body. Its about a lot of things.

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All of that stuff ignores the notion that a child is a child is a child regardless of the context around their conception. Biologically, the rape baby is just as much a human child as the baby conceived by the rich, married couple who loves each other very much.

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Some women might take the baby to term. That is an option that is feasible here in America. Its not feasible in other parts of the world. And in some places, like Afghanistan, there is no choice. If you are raped and impregnated, you get to have the baby and nobody will marry you. Your kids beg in the street and never receive an education. I can almost guarantee that you don't have a clue what level of suffering those women and children go through. Its pains me to think that somebody might call one of those women selfish for wanting to have a kid WHO ACTUALLY HAS A SHOT to do something for the family.

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Another argument for quality of life over life. I've already addressed this. I can understand someone not wanting their child to grow up in a certain situation in life, but you could make the same argument about a husband who dies after the child is born in the same area of the world. I suppose the child should be killed in that situation so it doesn't grow up in poverty. Right?

If we are going to start killing children because they are likely to have a poor quality of life, then that opens the door to a lot of possibilities that I don't really want to think about.

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In the end we will never agree on this. I understand that and truthfully, we will both sleep well at night despite knowing that there is someone on the other end of the internet that disagrees with our respective opinions. I wish you all the best, but agree to disagree.

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I agree with you. We probably won't ever see eye-to-eye on this. I enjoy the debate, though, so I'll keep going even if no one wants to consider my view

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You know what I've learned about abortion through my church?

There are a hell of a lot of people who have had abortions. And many of them are publicly pro life.

They all follow the script of abortions should only be allowed for three reasons: rape, incest, and my own.

You don't want to talk about extremes but everyone believes --their situation-- is the extreme

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I don't doubt you. Everyone is a hypocrite to one degree or another, and it is very likely that such a thing happened at your church. Christianity today has become a joke and your typical Christian looks no different than your typical Atheist in most respects.

But that doesn't change the principle.

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No, it's an emotional issue we're talking about. The arguments proffered so far have been based on the woman not being forced to relive or remember the rape, causing her emotional trauma. It has nothing to do with statistics.

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You do realize that most of the trauma experienced by rape victims comes in the form of psychological and emotional damage, both of which usually take a long time to resolve; that's if they're fortunate enough to get over it, many don't, and I'm sure all victims of rape carry the experience with the for the rest of their lives. The harshness with which we judge sexual predators is largely due to the fact that their crime continues to harm their victim long after the actual physical act is over. With that said, there are also severe physical repercussions that the victim must deal with as well.

It's hard enough treating people who have experienced trauma. One of the biggest obstacles during treatment is the tendency to relive the traumatic event; it comes in the form of flashbacks, nightmares, etc. You also fail to realize that the emotional and psychological consequences from experiencing trauma are not singular in nature. It's not a case where the rape victim simply experiences emotional pain or distress. Severe trauma, like rape, causes a multitude of emotional and psychological symptoms; we're talking severe anxiety, panic attacks, sleep disturbance, major depression, social isolation, complete breakdowns in conceptions of self and others, hypervigilance, avoidance, and the list goes on and on.

And that occurs in victims who don't have to worry about carrying the biological child of their attacker. Victims experience all kinds of triggers that force them to remember and/or relive the attack. They can be small things like smells, sounds, imagery. So what do you think being forced to carry a child for 9 months could do to a person?

As I alluded to earlier, people who live through traumatic experiences also usually experience physical symptoms as well. Traumatic events, especially something like rape, affect every facet of a person's life and well-being.

You trivialize the severity of something as horrific as rape when you say that what we're discussing is nothing more than an "emotional issue."

If a rape victim wishes to abort then that should be her right and, while tragic, any blame or judgment you wish to assign should be reserved for the rapist, not his victim.

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You do realize that most of the trauma experienced by rape victims comes in the form of psychological and emotional damage, both of which usually take a long time to resolve; that's if they're fortunate enough to get over it, many don't, and I'm sure all victims of rape carry the experience with the for the rest of their lives. The harshness with which we judge sexual predators is largely due to the fact that their crime continues to harm their victim long after the actual physical act is over. With that said, there are also severe physical repercussions that the victim must deal with as well.

It's hard enough treating people who have experienced trauma. One of the biggest obstacles during treatment is the tendency to relive the traumatic event; it comes in the form of flashbacks, nightmares, etc. You also fail to realize that the emotional and psychological consequences from experiencing trauma are not singular in nature. It's not a case where the rape victim simply experiences emotional pain or distress. Severe trauma, like rape, causes a multitude of emotional and psychological symptoms; we're talking severe anxiety, panic attacks, sleep disturbance, major depression, social isolation, complete breakdowns in conceptions of self and others, hypervigilance, avoidance, and the list goes on and on.

And that occurs in victims who don't have to worry about carrying the biological child of their attacker. Victims experience all kinds of triggers that force them to remember and/or relive the attack. They can be small things like smells, sounds, imagery. So what do you think being forced to carry a child for 9 months could do to a person?

As I alluded to earlier, people who live through traumatic experiences also usually experience physical symptoms as well. Traumatic events, especially something like rape, affect every facet of a person's life and well-being.

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I'm well aware. That's why I--as well as most of the rest of the world--view rape as such a horrific act. I can't even imagine having to deal with that and I pity anyone who has ever had to struggle with trying to move on from such an experience.

That said, all of that is still short of death, which is what we're talking about in regards to abortion.

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You trivialize the severity of something as horrific as rape when you say that what we're discussing is nothing more than an "emotional issue."

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I'm not intending to trivialize it at all, but if it comes out that way, it is only because I am trying to argue for an alternative to abortion, which is something many here don't even want to think about. Even a consideration that the child should not be aborted is viewed as some sort of crime against humanity and an assault on women. Frankly, the comments here have far more than trivialized the death of an unborn child when it comes to abortion. It's viewed as a virtue, in fact.

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If a rape victim wishes to abort then that should be her right and, while tragic, any blame or judgment you wish to assign should be reserved for the rapist, not his victim.

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The rapist will get my judgment for the act committed. However, that doesn't let the woman off the hook for any and all decisions she makes afterwards.

People react differently to trauma that they've experienced in life. Some are able to rise above it while others are destroyed by it. Some go on to be an inspiration to other victims while others commit suicide, alone in their agony. Some people go as far as to take their distress out on others in destructive ways, such as through murder. While we can sympathize with why someone who has experienced trauma or hardship might be led to destructive ends, we don't have to condone the actions they take in response to those traumas.

I think it's a similar sort situation with rape victims who choose to abort their pregnancies. Destroying a life to soothe their scars may be understandable, but I don't believe it is morally justifiable. To say otherwise is to admit that the unborn child has no intrinsic value and that its only value is its desirability to its parents/mother.

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It's also easy to advocate for the taking of a human life

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The proposition infers that the subhominoid animal rapist was in fact human. It seems, God's grace notwithstanding, you'd consider the issue a wholly biological matter. Biology corresponds to the species, therefore it is human. Not much different than horse breeding, right?

Then again there is the matter of being saddled with a recurring vivid psychological scar of a horrible crime, for life.

So here my proposal.
As the law should be equal, i.e. gender neutral, I'd propose that if a man's car gets stolen and is damaged in the process, when it is returned to him, he should have to drive it that way, unrepaired. When it is no longer drivable, he'd have to park it in the driveway, for the rest of his life as reminder of the crime. Same thing for any vandalism or other crime against males. Now granted, car theft comes nowhere near the impact of rape, but at least it would represent a good faith attempt to level the playing field. Fair enough?