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re: What would you say to a Yazidi woman raped by ISIS who wanted an abortion?
Posted on 12/12/14 at 4:04 pm to OMLandshark
Posted on 12/12/14 at 4:04 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
It is really the most misogynistic point of view one can have.
I don't think its misogyny that is the problem here, but I do think it is sick to force a woman to have a baby.
0
Posted on 12/12/14 at 4:10 pm to Mattwells90
quote:
And here come the sweeping generalizations from ASUROB.
sweeping hell, read your posts...it's pointed.
You could give a shite about the rape victim.
Just the fetus.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 4:13 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
No, it's not. Rape is definitely not a trivial thing, but if a child is conceived, it becomes part of the issue.
Only to people like you who never have to worry about living through that trauma.
People like you who don't have to wake up every morning reminded of what happened to them because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and now have to give birth to the evil product of a rape.
people like you are what is wrong with society.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 7:44 pm to JEAUXBLEAUX
quote:
1) it's a fetus
and?
Posted on 12/12/14 at 7:53 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:By that point, the rape is over with. What you are saying is that the mother's emotions are more important than the human life growing inside of her. Wow, if we took that approach in other aspects of life...
....but it doesn't take precedence over the woman who just suffered through something horrific and brutal.
Seriously, its people like you who give the pro-life movement a bad name.
The issue here is whether the "fetus" is a living person or not. To those who think it is not, I am "sick" and "a horrible human being" for lobbying for it to be protected. To those who think it is a live human being, it is only natural to want to protect it over the feelings of the mother.
You can want to protect the unborn child without thinking the mother doesn't deserve sympathy for what happened to her. To me, it's a matter of choosing an evil action to wipe away another evil action.
This post was edited on 12/12/14 at 8:11 pm
Posted on 12/12/14 at 7:56 pm to MrCarton
quote:I don't believe that "quality of life" supersedes "life". I don't propose killing off all children with disabilities, either, because they won't have a "perfect life".
I prioritize the mother over the child because that is the logical decision in my mind. Ideally all children are born and have perfect lives and are somehow able to be truly thankful they survived the challenges of being a fetus. Unfortunately I live in the real world and I know that that fanciful thought is just a dream.
The child of a yizidi rape victim has approximately 0% chance to live a reasonably happy life. The mother trying to provide for that child (the most important component in this scenario) has similar odds. Her most sound decision is abortion if that is possible. Deal with it. That's the world the world man. We dont all get to live awesome fulfilling lives. Sometimes its better when people die. We accept that in many different aspects of our society, but for some reason we hold the life of a fetus as sacrosanct. Even if it means laying the life of the mother at the alter of morality.
quote:If the unborn child is actually a life person (I believe it is), then it deserves just as much of a chance at life as you or I have had.
Its a horrible circumstance. I can empathize with the victims and the child, but I refuse to tell a mother whats best for her future.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 7:59 pm to MrCarton
quote:People like me aren't forgetting anything about future support systems. I know life will be very difficult; life is often very difficult for kids that grow up with two parents. This appears to be a debate of quality of life vs. life. I'm on the side of life, and I don't think it is short-sighted or hypocritical, especially since a lot of people have grown up in terrible conditions and have overcome them.
Boom. People are so focused on the fetus that they forget how events like this effect the future kids support systems. It short sighted and hypocritical.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 8:01 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
Yep. Its easy to get on your soapbox and take that position when you know there is a 0% chance that can happen to you bc of biology.
It's also easy to advocate for the taking of a human life when you know that there is a 0% chance that can happening to you because of the fact that your mother decided that you wouldn't be too much of a burden to give birth to.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 8:02 pm to OMLandshark
quote:You keep using this word, but I do not think it means what you think it means.
It is really the most misogynistic point of view one can have.
Seriously, you are implying that a man being against abortion is due to a hatred or dislike for women or some sort of denigration of the opposite sex. It's just as ridiculous as saying someone is racist for not voting for Obama. My wife feels the same way as I do about it. I suppose she's misogynistic, too.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 8:10 pm to asurob1
quote:Thinking that an unborn child deserves a shot at life is what is wrong with society? We really do have competing views of "right" and "wrong", then.
Only to people like you who never have to worry about living through that trauma.
People like you who don't have to wake up every morning reminded of what happened to them because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and now have to give birth to the evil product of a rape.
people like you are what is wrong with society
You support taking a life so that a woman doesn't have to deal with a traumatic event, even though she will always be reminded of it regardless of whether or not she ever became pregnant. You and others here are also talking as if she won't love the child.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 8:31 pm to kingbob
quote:
It's also easy to advocate for the taking of a human life when you know that there is a 0% chance that can happening to you because of the fact that your mother decided that you wouldn't be too much of a burden to give birth to.
That's not even close to the same level as what we're talking about, and you know it.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 8:40 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I don't believe that "quality of life" supersedes "life". I don't propose killing off all children with disabilities, either, because they won't have a "perfect life".
Well you may not agree, but the natural world does in many cases. And stop putting words in my mouth. I never argued for forced abortions, for the same reason I dont support forced births.
quote:
f the unborn child is actually a life person (I believe it is), then it deserves just as much of a chance at life as you or I have had.
The mother doesn't "deserve" to be raped, forced to give birth to the progeny of a psycho terrorist, and subsequently raise a child she didn't ask for.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 8:41 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
deserves
You use this word a lot. Usually this is an indicator of severe delusion.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 8:47 pm to MrCarton
quote:
You use this word a lot. Usually this is an indicator of severe delusion.
He also uses the word "but" a lot as well. Honestly, when I see that word, I completely dismiss everything that is said before that word to get his actual meaning. He doesn't mean a word of what he says before it, and he truly does see a guy who goes and shoots up an elementary school equally (or even less depending on the number of casualties) evil as a doctor who performs abortions. There's no reasoning with people like him, even though I'm sure that if anything happened to him like what happened to Keltic Tiger, the hypocrite wouldn't miss a beat on having and supporting his loved one having an abortion.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 8:47 pm to MrCarton
quote:
the rights of the parent supercede the rights of the fetus
Sorry, but I wholeheartedly believe this to be an extremely selfish line of thinking and thought in the moral sense.
Look, I get the rationale that a rape baby can absolutely frick the mother up and it doesn't have a good chance of succeeding in life and therefore it's better off being aborted but lets not pretend that the abortion is a noble and selfless act.
Call it what it is and that's an act of self preservation, improving quality of life and preventing a possible fricked up life led by the rape baby and there's nothing wrong with that.
A rape victim carrying the baby to term is what could truly be called selfless no matter how much we may think she's torturing herself but it's still fine. But some people just aren't strong enough to do something like that and that's completely ok too and they're well in their rights to decide where they want to go with this.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 8:51 pm to OMLandshark
Actually it is. The question posed in the op was what would you tell them, not what should the Yazidi legally be permitted to do. I am pro life because the concept of killing an innocent life just because a mother doesn't want the child seems selfish and wrong. Yes, pregnancy is extremely difficult and is truly a burden, but it comes with a huge payoff, the creation of limitless potential. I would advocate for the woman to give birth to the child and either raise it, if she feels capable, or offer it up for adoption. There are dozens if not hundreds of charities that would be happy to provide for that child and help to try to find a family that can love it and raise it right.
I was not saying that she should have no choice nor was I presuming to make such an important decision for her. I was merely answering the prompt proposed in the op. She should think of the child, but the choice is always hers.
Just because I am more morally inclined to support a given alternative in no way means that I favor eliminating those morally objectionable alternatives. Just because I don't want to listen to Miley Cyrus doesn't mean I want her banned from the airwaves. People are free to make their own choices, I just would hope that that poor woman would choose to give the child a chance to make something good out of an atrocity.
I was not saying that she should have no choice nor was I presuming to make such an important decision for her. I was merely answering the prompt proposed in the op. She should think of the child, but the choice is always hers.
Just because I am more morally inclined to support a given alternative in no way means that I favor eliminating those morally objectionable alternatives. Just because I don't want to listen to Miley Cyrus doesn't mean I want her banned from the airwaves. People are free to make their own choices, I just would hope that that poor woman would choose to give the child a chance to make something good out of an atrocity.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 8:51 pm to MrCarton
quote:I didn't put words in your mouth and I apologize if it seemed that I was.
Well you may not agree, but the natural world does in many cases. And stop putting words in my mouth. I never argued for forced abortions, for the same reason I dont support forced births.
I was pointing out what I believe to be one of the primary issues in this debate, in that the child shouldn't be forced to have a bad quality of life and (more importantly) neither should the mother, therefore the child should be killed.
I don't believe killing an unborn child for convenience should be any more of a choice than killing a child outside of the womb.
quote:No one "deserves" to be raped, and such a thought is atrocious. However, whether a woman was raped or consented should not affect whether or not a child should be given a shot at life.
The mother doesn't "deserve" to be raped, forced to give birth to the progeny of a psycho terrorist, and subsequently raise a child she didn't ask for.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 9:02 pm to MrCarton
quote:Never heard of that before, but I'm curious what "a lot" means to you.
You use this word a lot. Usually this is an indicator of severe delusion.
I used the word twice in regards to children deserving life. I used the word once in the context of the rape victim deserving sympathy for her ordeal (I don't think you or anyone else would argue with that usage), and I used the word two other times, directly quoting others. Go check out landshark's usage of the word in regards to rape babies not deserving to live at all.
Posted on 12/12/14 at 9:08 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
What you are saying is that the mother's emotions are more important than the human life growing inside of her.
Why do you think its just about emotions?
Posted on 12/12/14 at 9:10 pm to OMLandshark
quote:I find your description of me quite amusing considering how far off base it is, but that's not surprising considering you know very little about it.
He also uses the word "but" a lot as well. Honestly, when I see that word, I completely dismiss everything that is said before that word to get his actual meaning. He doesn't mean a word of what he says before it, and he truly does see a guy who goes and shoots up an elementary school equally (or even less depending on the number of casualties) evil as a doctor who performs abortions. There's no reasoning with people like him, even though I'm sure that if anything happened to him like what happened to Keltic Tiger, the hypocrite wouldn't miss a beat on having and supporting his loved one having an abortion.
If you dismiss what someone says before the word "but", you are being just as closed-minded as those you insult. The reason the word is used is to show two sides of a particular point. I believe every word I have said, including everything before the word "but".
While I believe all people are capable of the most evil acts, I don't believe a woman who aborts a child is on equal footing as the person who shoots up an elementary school. Both acts are evil in my mind, but the degree is certainly different.
Also, I'm not a person who adjusts his beliefs based on how he feels on any given day.
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