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re: Tariffs. What libertarian Economists don't grasp and more.
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:09 pm to Jjdoc
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:09 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
He pointed out that you have to control the borders and immigration to allow Americans to fill the void.
That sir is protectionism.
As he puts it (assuming you're being accurate), yes, that's a form of protectionism.
But there are a LOT of reasons to control immigration and your border besides the labor aspect. It doesn't by definition mean you're in favor of protecting low end labor.
1
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:22 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
So you disagree with Sowell here. He pointed out that you have to control the borders and immigration to allow Americans to fill the void.
That sir is protectionism.
Sowell is not anti-immigration. Sowell is anti- everyone walking across the border and not assimilating with American values immigration.
He has written about this extensively, and he has repeatedly said that immigration that drives assimilation, productivity, good community members is a net positive to America.
He also points out that immigrants from certain countries are incompatible with these values and are more likely to welfare drains (Middle East and certain S. American/African countries).
Free trade and eliminating illegal immigration are not inconsistent ideas.
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:24 pm to Flats
quote:
But there are a LOT of reasons to control immigration and your border besides the labor aspect. It doesn't by definition mean you're in favor of protecting low end labor.
And there are many reasons to use tariffs.
Its an economic tool.
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:31 pm to Ten Bears
quote:
Sowell is not anti-immigration. Sowell is anti- everyone walking across the border and not assimilating with American values immigration.
Where did i say he was anti immigration. Let's not make things up.
What I did was to comment on his rebuttal to Ryan. Those quotes are directly from him. And he clearly States the effects of immigration.
You can not haven't both ways.
quote:
Free trade and eliminating illegal immigration are not inconsistent ideas.
His response quoted was directly addressed to Paul Ryan on needed immigration reform.
Argue with Sowell about it if you do not like it.
What you want to do is is pick and choose where the Federal Gov steps in.
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:32 pm to BCreed1
Libertarian leaning economic policy often runs into a wall on trade policy and defense spending. It's 100% the correct approach if you ignore the whole Nash Equilibrium phenomenon and operate in a simplified, closed system where every participant has an equally long term outlook. Libertarians are correct that best solution is for everyone to eliminate defense spending and adhere to universal free trade. But neither of those are wise moves if you are the only one subscribing to those beliefs. Countries have emergencies and short term problems, they have elections that drive motivation for their politicians, and they join broader groups that potentially reduces their motivation to act rationally in their own interest.
The reality is that our own friends are taking advantage of us. If our trade partners do not practice free trade, we should not either. The EU in particular have been pretty ridiculous with their trade policies on imports - all while being far too relaxed with relying on the collective NATO nations (really the US) for their most critical defense vulnerability. With friends like them, why do we need enemies? We need to play hardball and match their tariffs.
Trade and defense are two areas where my ideology hits a wall in practice. It's lead me to be more of a "grocery cart" libertarian.
The reality is that our own friends are taking advantage of us. If our trade partners do not practice free trade, we should not either. The EU in particular have been pretty ridiculous with their trade policies on imports - all while being far too relaxed with relying on the collective NATO nations (really the US) for their most critical defense vulnerability. With friends like them, why do we need enemies? We need to play hardball and match their tariffs.
Trade and defense are two areas where my ideology hits a wall in practice. It's lead me to be more of a "grocery cart" libertarian.
This post was edited on 3/26/25 at 12:34 pm
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:43 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
And there are many reasons to use tariffs.
Its an economic tool.
I don't disagree, but you've got to be realistic about the cost of using that tool. It's not the free lunch that several people here like to claim.
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:44 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
His response quoted was directly addressed to Paul Ryan on needed immigration reform.
Argue with Sowell about it if you do not like it.
I'm not arguing w/ Sowell. You are trying to use a quote from Sowell to somehow prove that some sort of inconsistency exists between his view on immigration and his view on tariffs. That is simply not the case. Sowell makes it VERY clear that immigration policies do not have any merit if people can simply walk across the border. And, that is 100% true. Outside of a few wacko democrats and progressive economists, no one is arguing for open borders.
What is NOT true is to infer that Powell is in favor eliminating immigration to protect the American worker and, as a result, this conflicts with his position in tariffs, which purportedly protect the American worker.
To be clear, Sowell is against tariffs and illegal immigration. In no way is this an irrational or inconsistent. Powell is also anti-tariff and pro legal immigration when those immigrating become productive, contributing members of American society.
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:45 pm to stuntman
quote:
Weird. You would think then that the Smoot/Hawley tariffs would have worked wonders for us instead of being what really kicked off the Great Depression.
You'd also think we're in the exact same shape as the 1929 economy, based on your argument.
The world changed a lot after WWII, and the key part of the tariff strategy is the leverage USA has, based on the strength of our consumers. We've been the world's strongest economy for ages, and Covid only exacerbated the gap. We weren't bringing that same degree of leverage to the table when Smoot-Hawley was enacted, and we shouldn't expect the exact same results.
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:52 pm to Flats
quote:
don't disagree, but you've got to be realistic about the cost of using that tool. It's not the free lunch that several people here like to claim.
Then what is our disagreement Flats?
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:56 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
Yall still don’t realize it’s over for you.
Paleo-conservatism won, decisively. There is no other conservative movement in the US with meaningful support
If you are not supporting MAGA, you are a democrat. There is no such thing as “independent” anymore, if you look at polling the “independents” are just the Romney DNC-lite types
Paleo-conservatism won, decisively. There is no other conservative movement in the US with meaningful support
If you are not supporting MAGA, you are a democrat. There is no such thing as “independent” anymore, if you look at polling the “independents” are just the Romney DNC-lite types
This post was edited on 3/26/25 at 12:57 pm
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:57 pm to Harry Boutte
quote:No, tariffs are not just a big government solution to the problem of American consumers choosing not to support American industry, any more than our $1T/yr trade deficit is inconsequencial.
But aren't tariffs just a big government solution to the problem of American consumers choosing not to support American industry in the market?
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:59 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
If you are not supporting MAGA, you are a democrat.
Yawn.
quote:
MAGA
quote:
America First
quote:
fighting for us
quote:
against the Democrats
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:59 pm to Flats
quote:
Unless you're an anarchist taxes aren't inherently bad, tariffs included. Government has to be funded somehow.
Tariffs are constitutional. Income taxes are not.
Tariffs are fine to fund the gov't with, but that's not what they are doing here. They are using tariffs in an attempt to centrally plan the economy.
Posted on 3/26/25 at 1:04 pm to BCreed1
One thing for certain, we are about to find out which theory on tariffs is correct.
Posted on 3/26/25 at 1:06 pm to Bigdawgb
quote:
You'd also think we're in the exact same shape as the 1929 economy, based on your argument.
How did Bidens tariffs work out?
Posted on 3/26/25 at 1:12 pm to Penrod
quote:
Penrod
Why cant you just answer my question?
Not one of you tards can do it. Incredible
Posted on 3/26/25 at 1:14 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
Paleo-conservatism
Is that where we just vote for cavemen?
Posted on 3/26/25 at 1:17 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
Then what is our disagreement Flats?
It started when you accused me of being in favor of open borders.
Posted on 3/26/25 at 1:18 pm to BCreed1
quote:
Manufacturing drives innovation. A
Higher-level manufacturing drives innovation.
How is lower-level, 3rd World manufacturing going to drive innovation, exactly?
Posted on 3/26/25 at 1:21 pm to Aubie Spr96
quote:
Tariffs are constitutional. Income taxes are not.
As a practical matter that's irrelevant.
quote:
They are using tariffs in an attempt to centrally plan the economy.
That's obviously what a lot of them want. I don't get it. You're going to give the swamp the power to pick & choose which of our industries deserve protecting and which ones don't? It's crazy.
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