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Message
re: Russia on verge of biggest gain in Ukraine since summer
Posted on 1/13/23 at 2:48 pm to Indefatigable
Posted on 1/13/23 at 2:48 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
I do not understand this stated perception that the only reason Ukraine is fighting is because the United States is making them do so. Where does that come from? I'm not talking about whether Ukraine would be able to withstand Russia's initial attack or mount the summer offensive without Western help or actually win... I am wondering where this implied lack of Ukrainian will to fight absent Western prodding is coming from.
From my perspective it’s just the opposite.
Ukraine shocked Russia by defending Kiev and thwarting the Russian attacks there.
They gave Russia a stiff fight for Mariupol buying time to shore up defenses elsewhere.
All of this was before the West got weapons to the front lines.
Ukraine fought the Russians on their own. They are fighting a hated enemy and to keep their independence. They aren’t western surrogates or paid mercenaries like the Wagner group.
1
Posted on 1/13/23 at 3:02 pm to Indefatigable
quote:Goodness, that must have sounded brighter when you wrote it. Wow.
I was today years old when I learned that Bill Clinton forced Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic to apply for NATO membership.
So the proposition was to turn the clock back to Yeltsin. Your response, as we are closer to nuclear war than we have been in 60yrs, is we did everything right. There never was a diplomatic opening to de-escalate.
After the USSR break-up and Russia's conversion to a democracy, Russia was bad. Japan and Germany after WWII were good because, well just because.
Besides "putin" sounds like a person passing gas. Got it.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 3:03 pm to doubleb
quote:I think that is exactly right.
From my perspective it’s just the opposite.
Ukraine shocked Russia by defending Kiev and thwarting the Russian attacks there.
They gave Russia a stiff fight for Mariupol buying time to shore up defenses elsewhere.
All of this was before the West got weapons to the front lines.
Ukraine fought the Russians on their own.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 3:14 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Your response, as we are closer to nuclear war than we have been in 60yrs, is we did everything right.
No, my response was mocking your implication that the United States somehow forced Poland, et al into seeking NATO membership.
quote:
After the USSR break-up and Russia's conversion to a democracy, Russia was bad. Japan and Germany after WWII were good because, well just because.
Russia wasn't bad then, and they still are not inherently bad in my opinion. I have stated many times here that I do not view Russia as an enemy. They don't have to be. Their current choices to undermine their own interests by invading Ukraine notwithstanding, of course.
We (the Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2, Obama, Trump, and Biden administrations) have chosen to treat them like an inherent enemy, which I think is/was a mistake. But at the same time, Poland seeking NATO membership is not a sign of US aggression as much as a sign of those countries' desire to get as far away from Moscow as possible.
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 3:15 pm
Posted on 1/13/23 at 3:18 pm to NC_Tigah
Calendarium
The calendar of the Polish accession to NATO
31 March 1991
Dissolution of the Warsaw Pact military structure. In July 1991, the Warsaw Pact was officially dissolved.
11–12 March 1992
During a visit to Poland, NATO Secretary General Manfred Wörner said that “NATO’s door is open.”
10 April 1992
The first meeting of the NATO Military Committee, which was also attended by defence ministers and chiefs of staff of the countries of Central and Eastern Europe.
1 September 1993
President Lech Walesa, in a letter addressed to NATO Secretary General, stated that NATO membership was one of the priorities of the Polish foreign policy.
10 January 1994
The NATO summit in Brussels provided the countries of Central and Eastern Europe, including the countries formed after the collapse of the Soviet Union, with proposals for cooperation with NATO under the Partnership for Peace programme (PfP). The PfP created the possibility of joint military exercises, participation in peacekeeping and humanitarian operations, and consultations with NATO partners in the event of threats to their safety.
12 January 1994
The presidents of the Visegrad Group (Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland), at a meeting with President Bill Clinton in Prague, accepted the Partnership for Peace programme.
Poland wanted membership into NATO bad at the time, to keep Russia out of Poland.
There is not force to Poland joining Nato, everyone hated the Soviet Union, and the Polish people more than any others.
What happened to the Armia Krajowa after the and during the war, meant the Polish people would hate Stalin and the Soviet Union a long time.
The calendar of the Polish accession to NATO
31 March 1991
Dissolution of the Warsaw Pact military structure. In July 1991, the Warsaw Pact was officially dissolved.
11–12 March 1992
During a visit to Poland, NATO Secretary General Manfred Wörner said that “NATO’s door is open.”
10 April 1992
The first meeting of the NATO Military Committee, which was also attended by defence ministers and chiefs of staff of the countries of Central and Eastern Europe.
1 September 1993
President Lech Walesa, in a letter addressed to NATO Secretary General, stated that NATO membership was one of the priorities of the Polish foreign policy.
10 January 1994
The NATO summit in Brussels provided the countries of Central and Eastern Europe, including the countries formed after the collapse of the Soviet Union, with proposals for cooperation with NATO under the Partnership for Peace programme (PfP). The PfP created the possibility of joint military exercises, participation in peacekeeping and humanitarian operations, and consultations with NATO partners in the event of threats to their safety.
12 January 1994
The presidents of the Visegrad Group (Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland), at a meeting with President Bill Clinton in Prague, accepted the Partnership for Peace programme.
Poland wanted membership into NATO bad at the time, to keep Russia out of Poland.
There is not force to Poland joining Nato, everyone hated the Soviet Union, and the Polish people more than any others.
What happened to the Armia Krajowa after the and during the war, meant the Polish people would hate Stalin and the Soviet Union a long time.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 3:32 pm to Indefatigable
Zelensky had a chance to get out
On what terms?
Does it matter when you are out-populated and out-gunned except via support that is not unconditional and unlimited?
Putin is more-than-willing to use all of his people and the country's "wealth" to not loose face in this waining years, and the US and Western Europe were more than willing to spend billions (not people) to allow Putin to do so. As much as I hate to our tax dollars be used up, this may end up being a good thing, because Russia will not be financially able to bounce back...except possibly selling off old nukes to Iran, Syria, and the like.
On what terms?
Does it matter when you are out-populated and out-gunned except via support that is not unconditional and unlimited?
Putin is more-than-willing to use all of his people and the country's "wealth" to not loose face in this waining years, and the US and Western Europe were more than willing to spend billions (not people) to allow Putin to do so. As much as I hate to our tax dollars be used up, this may end up being a good thing, because Russia will not be financially able to bounce back...except possibly selling off old nukes to Iran, Syria, and the like.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 3:36 pm to tigger1
Russia liberated the parts of Ukraine where Russian sympathizers had been abused and killed for years.
They are still there, even though the forces of the entire Western World are against them. Id say the motherland is the one standing proud right now.
Maybe zensky and his buddies need to stop begging for money, stop doing photo shoots and celebrity appearances, and actually get some of the millions of proud, defiant citizens from doing the Afghanistan shuffle, and stay and fight.
They are still there, even though the forces of the entire Western World are against them. Id say the motherland is the one standing proud right now.
Maybe zensky and his buddies need to stop begging for money, stop doing photo shoots and celebrity appearances, and actually get some of the millions of proud, defiant citizens from doing the Afghanistan shuffle, and stay and fight.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 3:36 pm to AUauditor
quote:
Does it matter when you are out-populated and out-gunned except via support that is not unconditional and unlimited?
Yes. Very few, if any, nations of Ukraine's size are going to just capitulate immediately to territorial demands. I find it very odd that so many people here think Ukraine should just surrender a third of its territory to avoid being invaded. That is contrary to pretty much all historical evidence of how nation-states behave, and contrary to basic human instinct as well.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 3:37 pm to trinidadtiger
quote:
Russia liberated the parts of Ukraine where Russian sympathizers had been abused and killed for years.
You mean the areas of Donetsk and Luhansk that were occupied by Russia in 2014, practically evacuated by Ukrainians loyal to Kiev, and subsequently populated by native Russians who persisted in resisting Ukrainian authority in those regions?
Posted on 1/13/23 at 3:44 pm to Indefatigable
Donetsk and Luhansk were mostly a Cossack area if I remember correct which Stalin had them moved out and moved Russians into the area and this was before 1935.
Ukrainians also moved into the good farmland in the late 1930's. but mainly after WWII.
The fear of the Cossacks joining a war against the Soviet Union dates to the time of the 1917 revolution.
The Cossacks were like the right arm of the Czars army.
Yes it was a Cossack controlled area called, Aleksandrovskaya Cossack Sloboda in its place is attested by 1779
Ukrainians also moved into the good farmland in the late 1930's. but mainly after WWII.
The fear of the Cossacks joining a war against the Soviet Union dates to the time of the 1917 revolution.
The Cossacks were like the right arm of the Czars army.
Yes it was a Cossack controlled area called, Aleksandrovskaya Cossack Sloboda in its place is attested by 1779
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 3:50 pm
Posted on 1/13/23 at 3:54 pm to trinidadtiger
quote:
Maybe zensky and his buddies need to stop begging for money, stop doing photo shoots and celebrity appearances, and actually get some of the millions of proud, defiant citizens from doing the Afghanistan shuffle, and stay and fight.
So we have one pro Russian group who believe the Ukrainians aren’t fighting and are ducking the action, and we have another group that says there tens of thousands dying, but for nothing.
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 4:19 pm
Posted on 1/13/23 at 3:56 pm to texas tortilla
That's not joe biden.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 4:15 pm to Indefatigable
quote:Neither is nuclear war apparently bad in your opinion?
they still are not inherently bad in my opinion
Because even though they are not "inherently bad," you are happy to push that envelope.
Good God Almighty that is a stupid position!
Posted on 1/13/23 at 4:16 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Neither is nuclear war apparently bad in your opinion? Because even though they are not "inherently bad," you are happy to push that envelope. Good God Almighty that is a stupid position!
What the hell are you talking about?
Are you trying to say that Russia is an inherently bad nation because they have nuclear weapons?
I feel like SDVTiger has taken over your consciousness lately.
I have no concern about nuclear escalation in the current conflict, if that’s what you are getting at. Absolutely zero.
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 4:21 pm
Posted on 1/13/23 at 4:20 pm to GumboPot
Impossible. We're told almost daily that Ukraine is kicking Russia's arse. 
Posted on 1/13/23 at 4:21 pm to tigger1
quote:
Calendarium
quote:
There is not force to Poland joining Nato
Posted on 1/13/23 at 4:30 pm to Tchefuncte Tiger
quote:
Impossible. We're told almost daily that Ukraine is kicking Russia's arse.
No we are not. Since Ukraine’s successes in Kherson there’s been very little success on either side. I don’t know where you get your information from, but there’s a good thread on the OT board that covers the war.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 4:30 pm to AUauditor
quote:
Zelensky had a chance to get out
fricker is a pop star living the dream. This war is the best thing to happen to that dude.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 4:33 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Your response, as we are closer to nuclear war than we have been in 60yrs,
Unilaterally, due to Russia's irrationality
NOBODY else on earth is close to being close to having a discussion about having a debate about nukes.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 4:41 pm to Indefatigable
quote:You'll not find me posting a "
What the hell are you talking about?
" associated with nuclear war ... ever ... no matter how ridiculous the presumption is in getting us there. You're like the ufc kid who hears an old braindamaged ex-prizefighter bragging about his exploits back in the day, and taunts him into a barfight. You have a 44 in your pocket as well. So WTF is the risk. Right?
The guy is obviously postprime. All he has left are memories and his pride. As you kick his arse, and own his pride, he draws his own pistol and pops you twice dead center in the chest. Last thing you see is the flash.
Worth it?
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 4:43 pm
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