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Message
re: Russia on verge of biggest gain in Ukraine since summer
Posted on 1/13/23 at 12:36 pm to NC_Tigah
Posted on 1/13/23 at 12:36 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
The Russian perception is Ukraine (and/or Georgia) to NATO is a threat to Russian national security.
That's what they said.
Doesn't mean that's what they mean.
They've also framed this in terms of fighting Nazis and finding bioweapons labs.
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 12:37 pm
1
Posted on 1/13/23 at 12:36 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
The literal horror of sovereign states exercising their prerogative to conduct foreign policy as they see fit. Absolutely outrageous that the Central and Eastern European members had the audacity to do what they felt necessary to protect their interests.
JFK threatened war when Russia and Cuba did this. It’s generally considered one of his strongest moments.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 12:37 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
the US reserves right to meddle in affairs of countries in our sphere of influence. We do so under the guise of US security and commerce. Russia does the same. Any attempt at equation of Russian influence in Ukraine affairs, and US meddling in Ukrainian affairs is ridiculous.
The EU is within our sphere of influence.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 12:37 pm to Goonie02
Neocons were Democrats.
Hence the neo part. It was coined by hawkish Democrats in the 60s.
Hence the neo part. It was coined by hawkish Democrats in the 60s.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 12:37 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Is your reference to "invasion" in the aftermath of our 2014 coup and junta installation not to Crimea?
No that was in reference to the Russian 2022 invasion
Posted on 1/13/23 at 12:40 pm to Flats
quote:
JFK threatened war when Russia and Cuba did this.
During the cold war.
To a Russian satellite nation.
As an offensive maneuver.
It's not comparable to sovereign nations entering into agreements with other nations as a defensive pact.
We aren't in the Cold War, either. We are in Pax Americana, given to the world by the expansion of trade (of which Russia is opposed)
Posted on 1/13/23 at 12:41 pm to Indefatigable
quote:I missed this.
After all, Russia's publicly stated position is the only thing that matters, and all countries worldwide should determine their policy decisions based on Moscow's preferences.
No, Russia's publicly stated position is not the only thing that matters. Not at all. It's a case of diplomacy. Diplomacy is a matter of negotiation. War is the eventual result of diplomatic failure.
Wind the clock back. The USSR dissolves. Russia DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTS a Chief Executive for the first time in its history. We had the opportunity to embrace that, bolster it, and aid it akin to the rebuild of Germany/Japan at the end of WWII. Instead, because Bill Clinton had been caught sticking cigars up Monica's hoo-ha, he needed a "tough guy" win to recover his Presidency. So he went with an in-your-face move, spit on Russia, and expanded NATO. That was a gargantuan diplomatic failure.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 12:44 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:Well then, the war sort of clarified that for everyone, didn't it though.
Doesn't mean that's what they mean.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 12:47 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
the war sort of clarified that for everyone, didn't it though.
Not at all.
Their behavior during the war (especially "Annexing" areas) shows a different motive: acquiring strategic land.
It's the literal same playbook as Georgia, Crimea, etc. Claim ethnic Russians are being persecuted, engage in aggression, give those areas "freedom", and control things from Moscow. Belarus as well (except they took over the whole country).
Posted on 1/13/23 at 12:49 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Such a defeatist belief. Imagine being that naive regarding 100b dollars.
... and we're losing no lives while fighting a successful proxy war vs country we view as a threat. We're testing all sorts of military equipment vs what China, Russia, Iran has God forbid we had to go to war against any of them. We're exposed first hand to Russian military doctrine and tactics as well as coms and more. Are you that naive to think we don't have a huge incentive to spend this money?
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 1/13/23 at 12:53 pm to RogerTheShrubber
Many are misreading the problem with Ukraine.
Putin totally misread history of the Ukraine, he was not taught at all about the end of World War II, which did not happen in 1945 as we were taught.
The fighting between the Soviet Union and Ukrainian freedom fighters made up of as many as 4 main groups last into 1949.
Just as the Baltic States fought into 1949.
Putin thought his troops would be seen as liberators, but he was not taught of the mass starvation of the Ukrainian people by Lenin and mainly Stalin to feed the large cities of the Soviet Union (main cities send the food where Moscow and St. Petersburg, but that is only 2 of many). This was in the 1920's and the 1930's and some of those are still a life today to tell the horrors of that time, when families had to eat the dead.
The Ukrainians saw the Germans as liberators until the Germans started shooting their people. They had little problems when the Germans were shooting Jewish people, as Pogroms were common in the Ukraine long before World War II.
The Ukrainian distrust of Russia has a long history dating back to the time of Catherine the Great when she invaded what was part of Otteman Empire.
The area being fought over in the Eastern side of the Ukraine was part of the Cossack controlled area of the old Russian Empire.
And we know what Stalin did with the Cossacks, and you can see how Putin misread the Ukraine and he was never taught the real history of the area.
Putin totally misread history of the Ukraine, he was not taught at all about the end of World War II, which did not happen in 1945 as we were taught.
The fighting between the Soviet Union and Ukrainian freedom fighters made up of as many as 4 main groups last into 1949.
Just as the Baltic States fought into 1949.
Putin thought his troops would be seen as liberators, but he was not taught of the mass starvation of the Ukrainian people by Lenin and mainly Stalin to feed the large cities of the Soviet Union (main cities send the food where Moscow and St. Petersburg, but that is only 2 of many). This was in the 1920's and the 1930's and some of those are still a life today to tell the horrors of that time, when families had to eat the dead.
The Ukrainians saw the Germans as liberators until the Germans started shooting their people. They had little problems when the Germans were shooting Jewish people, as Pogroms were common in the Ukraine long before World War II.
The Ukrainian distrust of Russia has a long history dating back to the time of Catherine the Great when she invaded what was part of Otteman Empire.
The area being fought over in the Eastern side of the Ukraine was part of the Cossack controlled area of the old Russian Empire.
And we know what Stalin did with the Cossacks, and you can see how Putin misread the Ukraine and he was never taught the real history of the area.
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 12:55 pm
Posted on 1/13/23 at 1:02 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Neocons were Democrats.
Hence the neo part. It was coined by hawkish Democrats in the 60s.
correct. the neocons are progenitors of hawkish democrats and former militant communists who latched on to the Republican party.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 1:02 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
It's the literal same playbook as Georgia
quote:You do know ethnic Russians are being persecuted there, right?
Claim ethnic Russians are being persecuted
quote:Absolutely. Ukraine means "Borderlands". The Ukraine has always been a Russian buffer (borderland) against western incursion. Russia considers that elemental to its national security. That was their argument against NATO in Ukraine. It was the strategic rationale for invasion.
acquiring strategic land
At the time of invasion, Russia had designs on buffer territory along the entirety of its western border. Those goals got squashed. Now the effort is to secure the Donbass and the southern Dnipro/Crimean Canal surrounds under auspices of protecting ethnic Russians.
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 1:08 pm
Posted on 1/13/23 at 1:07 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
You do know ethnic Russians are being persecuted there, right?
Yes which is why they got a pass for so long. The question is how often they'd use Russian assets acting as agent provocateurs within the population to create hostilities that led to a response (the above-referenced persecution).
quote:
Now the effort is to secure the Donbass and the southern Dnipro/Crimean Canal surrounds under auspices of protecting ethnic Russians.
No
It's about having a land connection between the motherland and Crimea and the water access this provides (as well as some mineral wealth along the way). Russia conceives of everything over the land, so this is INCREDIBLY important to their expansionist goals.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 1:13 pm to RogerTheShrubber
The Neocon Jews want this war to rage on in perpetuity.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 1:27 pm to Goonie02
I think we have the trifecta!!!!
You guys have blamed the Globalists, the neocons and Soros for Russian invasions of Ukraine.
But it’s not Putin’s fault. Keep digging your hole.
You guys have blamed the Globalists, the neocons and Soros for Russian invasions of Ukraine.
But it’s not Putin’s fault. Keep digging your hole.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 1:36 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Dnipro/Crimean Canal surrounds
quote:One of us is not following. Are you talking about a different land connection and water supply?
It's about having a land connection between the motherland and Crimea and the water access this provides
Posted on 1/13/23 at 1:37 pm to doubleb
quote:
I think we have the trifecta!!!!
You guys have blamed the Globalists, the neocons and Soros for Russian invasions of Ukraine.
"The Jews" just made a (direct) appearance
Posted on 1/13/23 at 1:40 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
"The Jews" just made a (direct) appearance
Is Globalist code for the Jews?
Posted on 1/13/23 at 1:41 pm to doubleb
quote:
Is Globalist code for the Jews?
Only to idiot Leftists
And I'm a big "globalism is a stupid concept that you can't even define" guy, but it's not "the Jews" reincarnate.
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