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re: Russia on verge of biggest gain in Ukraine since summer
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:12 am to NC_Tigah
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:12 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
In fact, the game the west continues is one of isolation, not incorporation. For some reason, likely cold war vestiges, Russia is isolated while China is embraced. Economic isolation eventually spells defeat.
Could an un-isolated Russia that was freely trading with western nations undermine the reasons for the existence of NATO? Apparently a lot of careers and business and government partnerships depend on NATO.
3
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:14 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Except when they don't. They said NATO in Ukraine would mean war. They said it again, and again, and again.
And Ukraine isn't part of NATO
They preemptively attacked Ukraine out of fear that they would join NATO and knowing that NATO would not likely accept Ukraine as a member while Ukraine was actively engaged in a war that was started by Russia.
quote:
then did the thing they said.
Except that Ukraine isn't in NATO so you can frick right off with that
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:20 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Spin it, Poli bros!!!
Back in like February 22, Ukraine agreed to everything Putin wanted and he tried to change the deal
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:20 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Let's think about that. If the effort was to advance all parties (including Russia) in a free-trade sort of way, why would Russia object? They wouldn't. In fact, the game the west continues is one of isolation, not incorporation. For some reason, likely cold war vestiges, Russia is isolated while China is embraced. Economic isolation eventually spells defeat.
Russia is bad the West puts them in timeout so to speak.
They were in G 8, but guess what? They took over Crimea and parts of the Donbas so they were voted off the island.
They launched more attacks against Ukraine early last year. Guess what, we organized economic embargoes to hurt their economy.
Yes, we have tried to isolate them, and it’s their fault.
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 10:22 am
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:20 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
I’m asking why you think Putin the right to invade UkraineI don't.
Thank you
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:42 am to GumboPot
I was just watching an interview with Roger Stone and he said a few interesting things about Ukraine. He said Nuland and Co. were butthurt that Manafort got Yanukovich in -- BUT, Manafort was trying to get Ukraine into the EU, so he was not a Russian stooge. He said a bunch of other stuff about Kilimnik and Flynn, but it was hard for me to digest. The interview is live now, but if anyone wants to watch it later:
LINK
LINK
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 10:44 am
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:44 am to GumboPot
quote:
Is Putin scared the EU will conquer Russia?
They will make Russia even more irrelevant and hurt what little prosperity Russia has severely.
Russia isn't one to negotiate in good faith or engage in real diplomacy, so they've become quite isolated. Even their apparent relations with China are not long-term relationships because Russia will never submit to China (China is the power Russia thinks itself to be). China is also a better negotiator and power player and is much smarter in how they expand influence. Russia has to rely on old-school force (Georgia, Belarus, the stans, Ukraine, etc).
Russia needs Ukraine being subjugated to Russia economically or else the cost of doing business for Russia goes up dramatically everywhere else. The only way Ukraine will submit to this is via force (direct or otherwise, like a Russian puppet being installed).
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:45 am to Indefatigable
quote:
The Russians are worried about the EU for reasons ($$$$$ and trade/economic relationships) that are far more destructive for Russia's preferred status as dominatrix of its former vassals than any military conflict would be.
Yes. A "European" Ukraine would likely lead to Ukraine surpassing Russia in time.
This is a reality that Russia CANNOT accept.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:45 am to doubleb
quote:
Zelensky was the new kid on the block. He wasn’t around in 2010 of 2014.
Oh I know that's a separate argument entirely that makes people melt on this board
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:46 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
They will make Russia even more irrelevant and hurt what little prosperity Russia has severely.
What do you predict will happen to Putin when this is all over?
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:47 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
I LITERALLY cannot find that citation. Sorry.
When Nuland's calls were intercepted, she made Arseniy Yatsenyuk the #1 guy.
She also said "frick the EU", among other things that don't comport with today's talking points
quote:
In the leaked conversation, Nuland appears to favor opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:49 am to GumboPot
quote:
How would the EU trading with Russia be destructive to Russia?
EU and Ukraine would be devastating to Russia long-term.
Russia could, theoretically, change itself to become palatable for the EU, but they will never do this. Putin (or whatever oligarch replaces him) would have to give up control and the deals would be 2-way streets (Russia only does 1-way, which is why they've become so isolated economically).
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:49 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
If the effort was to advance all parties (including Russia) in a free-trade sort of way, why would Russia object?
They wouldn't.
Russia doesn't do free trade
Russia sets the terms or doesn't engage.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:51 am to doubleb
quote:
I’m asking why you think Putin the right to invade UkraineI don't.
Thank you
Let me ask you this. Are we right in meddling in Ukraine's affairs and elections?
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:51 am to GumboPot
quote:
Could an un-isolated Russia that was freely trading with western nations undermine the reasons for the existence of NATO? Apparently a lot of careers and business and government partnerships depend on NATO.
Ding, ding, ding!!
It's always about the money.
We're not sending the bank to Ukraine out of some moral obligation to help a downtrodden people. We're there protecting globalists' interests.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:51 am to SlowFlowPro
Correct, most of the call is about appeasing Klitschko and at least she didn't advocate for neo-nazi Thanybok.
"I think Yats is the guy."
"I think Yats is the guy."
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:51 am to Perfect Circle
quote:
We're there protecting globalists' interests.
Primarily American businessmen.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:52 am to GumboPot
quote:
Could an un-isolated Russia that was freely trading with western nations undermine the reasons for the existence of NATO?
No, Russia would just become part of NATO.
NATO is largely a symbolic organization, especially after the 2004 Iraq invasion.
The major players of NATO will not be beholden to NATO norms or popularity among NATO members if opportunities present themselves. NATO has become an arm of the UNSC and hasn't done very much without UNSC authority in a long time.
The EU? That's an organization with teeth and contemporary results.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:53 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Are we right in meddling in Ukraine's affairs and elections?
No, but the "wrong" becomes much less tenuous when you realize it was to correct Russian meddling.
And it becomes even more tenuous when you realize the government we helped install wasn't in power when Russia invaded and, in fact ousted our puppet
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:55 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
No, but the "wrong" becomes much less tenuous when you realize it was to correct Russian meddling.
Of course they see it differently, and you of course believe the mainstream talking points..
In between you'll probably find truth. We set up shop in Ukraine and its not any of our business.
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