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Started By
Message
re: Ex-SBC president allegedly sexually assaulted pastor’s wife, asked for sex 3 times a day
Posted on 5/29/22 at 8:33 am to Azkiger
Posted on 5/29/22 at 8:33 am to Azkiger
quote:I do not, no. Not unless God ordained more people to be saved first.
So you don't think if God personally walked and talked with every member of his creation, like he did with Adam and Eve, that not one extra soul would be saved?
Jesus walked and talked with Judas for 3+ years and Judas still betrayed Him and killed himself in unbelief. This was precisely because God did not choose Judas to receive eternal life.
God was in the midst of Israel, dwelling in the tabernacle and then the temple for years. He performed miracles and signs to the people, and they still rejected Him and worshipped other gods made of their own hands. He sent prophets and gave them power to perform miracles by His authority and the people still refused to repent of idolatry and follow God.
Jesus went about the land, performing miracles and expressing His authority as God, and He was still chased out of towns and cities, threatened with death, and was finally crucified due to the rejection of the people.
So no, I don’t believe that anyone extra would be saved unless God changed the hearts and minds of people by His Spirit and gave them the gift of faith, which is how He has always saved people.
quote:Your analogy assumes we are innocent and wanting to be saved but only a few get the help they want. That’s not true. Most reject that they are drowning and in need of help, and many who do recognize their need reject the help that is offered to them.
I don't get this mentality.
God creates us drowning in a pool, then gets to be viewed as merciful when he throws 1 or 2% of us a flotation device.
It’s more like God creates the world on death row in prison, where everyone is waiting for their execution date for treason against the almighty King, and He offers a pardon to everyone who will repent of their crimes and trust in His son, who has already been executed to satisfy the King’s justice, even though all are guilty of their crimes and not deserving to be pardoned. All but a few reject that deal, because: they don’t believe they will be executed; they don’t believe they have committed treason; that they King doesn’t exist to grant them a pardon; that they hate the King and would rather be executed than acknowledge His rule; or that they are looking to another king to save them from their execution.
No one deserves salvation from sin. If we did, then salvation would be owed to us rather than an act of mercy. We are all guilty of cosmic treason due to our sinful rebellion against the Lord of all creation.
quote:For one, it is a nonsensical hypothetical question as we don’t exist prior to creation, but for the sake of your argument, I’d say it depends on God’s decree and work in me and not on probabilities.
Honest question: If you were given the odds before being created in sin on Earth, told that there was a ~98% chance you'd burn for all eternity or a 2% chance you'd end up in paradise, would you want to be created and roll the dice?
Even if you say yes, can you understand someone saying no to that offer?
Second, I believe most people, in such a scenario, would choose to not be created in the first place (assuming they believed the message in the first place) rather than risk being tormented as a deserved punishment (which is understandable), however the desire to not be born into that situation is moot, as it is God that determines the course of the universe, not us, and even in the situation we find ourselves in, most people who are told how to be saved reject it anyway.
Let’s change that scenario around just a little: let’s assume you are in your current situation in life with your current unbelief in God and our state before Him, and you are told that you could be one of the 1 or 2 percent that is saved if you believe in Jesus’ saving work on the cross on your behalf. Would you believe or reject that message?
If you reject that message, why create unrealistic hypotheticals when you reject reality?
Posted on 5/29/22 at 8:40 am to Champagne
quote:A minority view is not necessarily a false view. “Calvinism” used to be the majority view in Protestantism. And regardless of what Calvin taught, I believe the doctrines because I believe that they are biblical. I don’t care what name is associated to them (they are also commonly referred to as ‘the doctrines of grace’).
Foo is a Calvinist who follows John Calvin's thoughts and opinions on these issues. Calvinism is Predestinationism. It's a minority view, even among Protestants.
“Calvinism” is more than predestination. It also includes the doctrines of our spiritual deadness, the object of Christ’s work, the efficacy of the Spirit, and the preservation of God’s people. Even so, the Bible teaches election/predestination; you can’t get around it. The only question is how God predestines. Is it conditional or unconditional? Does God choose based on our choice first, or does He choose out of His sovereign will and purpose?
I believe the Bible is clear that election is based on God’s sovereign will, not our own.
This post was edited on 5/29/22 at 9:01 am
Posted on 5/29/22 at 9:05 am to Jjdoc
Well obviously you keep a list so that you have institutional knowledge as to who to allow to hold leadership or volunteer positions. Don’t want John or Jane Pedo volunteering in the nursery.
Nothing ominous about that at all. In fact it is a reasonable step to prevent future incidents.
Nothing ominous about that at all. In fact it is a reasonable step to prevent future incidents.
Posted on 5/29/22 at 10:17 am to Frank Black
quote:
The dude was 57 at the time. That's one horny mofo
I'm 59 and I get it twice a day at least twice a week.
Posted on 5/29/22 at 11:20 am to El Segundo Guy
So what you’re saying is that in churches, just like everywhere on earth, there are bad people. Go figure.
Posted on 5/29/22 at 12:57 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Jesus walked and talked with Judas for 3+ years... God was in the midst of Israel, dwelling in the tabernacle and then the temple for years. He performed miracles and signs to the people, and they still rejected Him and worshipped other gods made of their own hands... Jesus went about the land, performing miracles and expressing His authority as God, and He was still chased out of towns and cities, threatened with death, and was finally crucified due to the rejection of the people.
Why are you focusing on all the people who saw and didn't believe, and ignoring all the people who saw and believe?
quote:
Your analogy assumes we are innocent and wanting to be saved but only a few get the help they want. That’s not true. Most reject that they are drowning and in need of help, and many who do recognize their need reject the help that is offered to them.
No, my analogy addresses our guilt. I said we were created in a pool, drowning (dying of sin) immediately upon our creation. There's no chance to be innocent. There's no chance to be anything other than guilty.
quote:
It’s more like God creates the world on death row in prison, where everyone is waiting for their execution date for treason against the almighty King, and He offers a pardon to everyone who will repent of their crimes and trust in His son, who has already been executed to satisfy the King’s justice, even though all are guilty of their crimes and not deserving to be pardoned.
That's my analogy in a nutshell. The difference here is that the pardoning judge is off hiding in some bushes, not stopping in each prison cell explaining everything. All you have to go off of is some writings prison guards wrote thousands of years ago to inform you of this.
Again, it's no wonder this system produces such shitty pardon rates.
quote:
For one, it is a nonsensical hypothetical question as we don’t exist prior to creation
My description modified creation to be describing our creation here on Earth, guilty of sin. Your spirit could be made in Heaven, and before it gets shoved into a body God could ask you if you really want to run the 98%/2% gauntlet.
quote:
Second, I believe most people, in such a scenario, would choose to not be created in the first place (assuming they believed the message in the first place) rather than risk being tormented as a deserved punishment (which is understandable), however the desire to not be born into that situation is moot, as it is God that determines the course of the universe, not us, and even in the situation we find ourselves in, most people who are told how to be saved reject it anyway.
Yep and that's just another problem with your belief system.
You're created without your consent, already being guilty of sin despite not even taking your first breath, and must navigate this insane world, find the right ancient text, trust that it's true, and follow its instructions before you die.
It's almost as if he's trying to make the odds extremely small to get to Heaven.
Posted on 5/29/22 at 2:28 pm to Azkiger
I'm a lifelong member of SBC
These churches are autonomous with an affiliation for missions, education [seminaries and colleges], and the purpose of theological integrity.
In no way is the SBC executive committee responsible for what happens at the local church. The fact that 90 percent of the people were on this list because of local church action and legal consequences is encouraging.
The fact that such a list needs to exist is discouraging of course. But I don't blame God or the EC.... those are fallen men and women indulging their own sinful desires.
Also unfortunate it's how this has been politicized and how 4 million was miss spent. The list already existed. There was not a 4 million dollar expense to recreate it. Nor was there a need other than denominational politics. It's sickening.
These churches are autonomous with an affiliation for missions, education [seminaries and colleges], and the purpose of theological integrity.
In no way is the SBC executive committee responsible for what happens at the local church. The fact that 90 percent of the people were on this list because of local church action and legal consequences is encouraging.
The fact that such a list needs to exist is discouraging of course. But I don't blame God or the EC.... those are fallen men and women indulging their own sinful desires.
Also unfortunate it's how this has been politicized and how 4 million was miss spent. The list already existed. There was not a 4 million dollar expense to recreate it. Nor was there a need other than denominational politics. It's sickening.
Posted on 5/29/22 at 2:30 pm to El Segundo Guy
quote:
Keep going on Sundays and keep tithing 10% so you can feel good about yourself. Organized religion is as corrupt as politics.
Posted on 5/29/22 at 2:34 pm to proudertider
The one story the investigating has brought to light that seems to be "new" is the one referenced in this thread. Johnny Hunt.
I think he was actually the target and I think the "new guard" saw this as a way of completely negating the "old guard." They've already undermined Paige Patterson's legacy. Hardly anyone saw Johnny Hunt being implicated before hand. It will quiet many conservative, theologically sound voices in the SBC.
I think he was actually the target and I think the "new guard" saw this as a way of completely negating the "old guard." They've already undermined Paige Patterson's legacy. Hardly anyone saw Johnny Hunt being implicated before hand. It will quiet many conservative, theologically sound voices in the SBC.
Posted on 5/29/22 at 10:40 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
A minority view is not necessarily a false view.
I am pleased that you recognize that Calvin's view is a minority view even among Protestants. As a corollary of that fact, I would point out that most Protestants would opine that Calvin's view is indeed a "false view", and, in everybody's opinion, a "false view" is an unbiblical view.
But, I do thank you for your input.
John Calvin was a learned scholar who lived from 1509 to 1564.
Jesus Christ established His Church and trained the first leaders of His Church in the year 33.
Posted on 5/29/22 at 10:44 pm to Frank Black
Damn, Hunt was pastor of a mega church here my parents used to drag me to as a kid like 30 years ago. First Baptist Woodstock, aka Six Flags over Jesus.
Posted on 5/29/22 at 10:55 pm to MetroAtlantaGatorFan
quote:He was a very popular revivalist as well. A pastor friend of mine who once pastored a large church in Louisiana said Hunt was the preacher for one of their revivals years ago. He feels sick right now
Damn, Hunt was pastor of a mega church here my parents used to drag me to as a kid like 30 years ago. First Baptist Woodstock, aka Six Flags over Jesus.
One other thing about Hunt. His version of what happened and the woman's version of what happened are very, very different. The committee said after interviewing both that they found his version not to be credible and her version to be credible. After reading both versions, I am inclined to agree. I think he's lying
This post was edited on 5/29/22 at 11:04 pm
Posted on 5/29/22 at 11:37 pm to Frank Black
According to the SATF report Hunt was interviewed 2X. In the first he denied even knowing the "pastor" husband of the "survivor." That's odd.
Jon Whitehead's (know little about him but his) Twitter has some additional background on Johnny Hunt that links him to Kevin Ezell and Danny Akin.
Jon Whitehead's (know little about him but his) Twitter has some additional background on Johnny Hunt that links him to Kevin Ezell and Danny Akin.
Posted on 5/30/22 at 12:32 am to AlwysATgr
quote:Right. And in the 2nd interview he admitted to kissing and touching her breasts over her clothes
According to the SATF report Hunt was interviewed 2X. In the first he denied even knowing the "pastor" husband of the "survivor." That's odd.
According to her, he did a hell of a lot more than that
Posted on 5/30/22 at 9:23 am to Lawyered
quote:
He responded with for the most part the list included people who’ve already been convicted of sexual misconduct and abuse. So while it’s a shock. It’s not like the Catholic Churches scandal where they knew the abuse and just transferred priests to different areas
The problem here is they do know. They just quietly fire them and find a new pastor while the offender goes off an applies to a new church and the cycle continues.
The catholic church is centralized and moves them but keeps exquisite records so the transgressions will come out and they'll be record of it.
Edit: there were three pastors in our area in in the last ten years busted for shite like this but the only reason I know about it is because we knew men on the boards.
Never made the papers
This post was edited on 5/30/22 at 9:25 am
Posted on 5/30/22 at 10:14 am to LSU Grad Alabama Fan
They talked about this in church yesterday. Whiskey jr was sitting with us since they didn’t have Kid’s Time so I had to tell him “ear muffs”
Posted on 5/30/22 at 10:20 am to thejudge
quote:
Never made the papers
Should it?
Posted on 5/30/22 at 10:30 am to whiskey over ice
quote:
They talked about this in church yesterday. Whiskey jr was sitting with us since they didn’t have Kid’s Time so I had to tell him “ear muffs”
How is Whiskey jr ever going to learn about the birds and the creeps now?
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