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re: Do you think it is fair that Chinese automakers can use Mexico to ship cars tax free?
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:04 am to RogerTheShrubber
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:04 am to RogerTheShrubber
No they wont. they cant survive and compete with the Chinese unless we are willing to tear down the unions and every labor law and green energy racket ever written. Then you get bailouts and everything gets worse.
Don't fool yourself. The Chinese aren't competing on even ground. They steal IP, they abuse labor, and manipulate currency. There are things that need to be sorted out before any pure market competition could benefit the consumer and this move violates the spirit of NAFTA. Fair trade first, free trade second.
Don't fool yourself. The Chinese aren't competing on even ground. They steal IP, they abuse labor, and manipulate currency. There are things that need to be sorted out before any pure market competition could benefit the consumer and this move violates the spirit of NAFTA. Fair trade first, free trade second.
1
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:05 am to The Maj
quote:
We should not be providing subsidies to other competitors in the form of "free trade" either.
That's not providing subsidies, that's introducing competition.
In an ideal world, competition would force American manufacturers to do things better and cheaper, but labor unions and government regulations prevent them from competing on a level playing field.
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:07 am to GumboPot
quote:
But there is a MASSIVE difference between being a state own business and a business that receives beneficial regulation and/or subsidies.
Because our government diluted the money supply, prices are so high in this country we can no longer compete on a global scale.
The future is "more globalization" due to tech, not less.
We lost basic manufacturing, the current policies will destroy heavy industry too if we dont learn to compete on the field as it is.
Its our monetary policies that have led here. Lets fix them and make us more competitive.
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:08 am to Timeoday
It will be a bloodbath
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:08 am to YouKnowImRight
quote:
In a free market, yes.
In a protectionist market, they can continue to drive cost up and quality down.
When quality goes down that is the signal to central planners to lower taxes on imports to stimulate competition.
It's called regulated markets. A capitalist society needs regulated markets.
The goal of a capitalists society is to make society as free as possible so people can move up and down the economic latter as freely as possible, i.e., maximize economic opportunity.
Without regulated markets monopolies, duopolies, oligopolies become the oppressors and stifle overall economic growth for society as a whole and stifle economic opportunity for individuals.
Tariffs are only one tool in the toolbox for regulated markets. Any tool in the tool box can be abused or misused. However used properly by responding to market feedback tariffs can be used to help maximize economic opportunity in the U.S.
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:09 am to YouKnowImRight
quote:
In an ideal world, competition would force American manufacturers to do things better and cheaper, but labor unions and government regulations prevent them from competing on a level playing field.
In your ideal world is China not exploiting an advantage that was extended to Mexico in order to gain an advantage on U.S. manufacturing?
The world is far from ideal and this "free trade" ideas is one of the worst that anyone has ever come up with...
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:10 am to Vacherie Saint
quote:
No they wont. they cant survive and compete with the Chinese unless we are willing to tear down the unions and every labor law and green energy racket ever written.
The way America maintained some advantage to this point was technology. It will continue to give us advantages as long as we keep those leading the economy moving. Protectionist policies make thoroughbreds, trotting horses.
Yall need some basic lessons in markets. For real. This is the stuff I've argued with Democrats for years, yall are just making their points.
This post was edited on 3/19/24 at 10:14 am
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:10 am to Timeoday
I'll let you know after I get my new Fewarley
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:11 am to GumboPot
quote:
When quality goes down that is the signal to central planners to lower taxes on imports to stimulate competition.
Youre just advocating for central planning here.
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:14 am to GumboPot
quote:
However used properly by responding to market feedback tariffs can be used to help maximize economic opportunity in the U.S.
And you think a central planner from DC can do this better than the market? And they'll "maximize economic opportunity" for all Americans, and not just those with effective lobbyists and money?
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:15 am to The Maj
quote:
this "free trade" ideas is one of the worst that anyone has ever come up with...
Spoken like a true collectivist Democrat.
Free trade is why American products are sold around the world, why the US has more billionaires than all the world combined, why our standard of living and GDP is the greatest in the world, and on and on and on. Free trade is also why Apple and Samsung can sell you a phone for $1000 instead of $5000.
If Chinese cars are cheaper and more reliable than American cars, then consumers will benefit from it. If they're cheaper and less reliable, then China is about to waste a ton of money.
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:15 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Its our monetary policies that have led here. Lets fix them and make us more competitive.
I'm with you here.
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:16 am to YouKnowImRight
quote:
Spoken like a true collectivist Democrat.
MAGA populism was the trojan horse.
Worked like a charm
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:17 am to Flats
quote:
And you think a central planner from DC can do this better than the market?
This conversation is disturbing IMO.
I never thought I would see "republicans" arguing Democrat talking points.
Bernie does their economics better than Trump.
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:18 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Youre just advocating for central planning here.
Not advocating it it here. Just stating reality.
Do I wish we could live in a libertarian world view with no central planners? Absolutely. But that is not reality.
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:19 am to Indefatigable
quote:
Do China and the relevant Mexican entities agree on the terms of the arrangement?
Then yes, it is fair.
Is it advantageous to the United States? No.
Should our policy change to address it? Yes.
Agreed. This is what happens when your government becomes so fat and lazy that it allows competition from other countries to draw manufacturing out of your own.
In the specific instance of the auto industry, it's also what happens when the auto industry greatly expands upper and middle management positions and salaries during times of high net profits while remaining so highly confrontational to labor that unions flourish to the point of also abusing pay.
If we're going to talk about "fair" then the auto industry (and thus auto unions) falling under the weight of being too adversarial towards one another has to play into it as well.
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:19 am to Timeoday
Help me understand the issue here...
Nissan, Toyota, and Volkswagen can build cars in Mexico and import them tax free into the US, and that's not a problem. GM and Ford can build factories in Mexico, and we don't like it, but we don't tax them for it.
But if a Chinese company tries to do the same thing, we suddenly want to unwind the USMCA (which Trump himself proposed and signed)?
If their cars suck, then either convince the public they shouldn't buy them, or pass regulatory standards they cannot meet. If they are stealing technology (which the Japanese and Koreans are famous for) then use the FTC to crack down on that.
Do we want free trade with Mexico or not? I'm not advocating one way or the other. But if we want free trade, how can we tell Mexico which companies they can accept investment from?
Nissan, Toyota, and Volkswagen can build cars in Mexico and import them tax free into the US, and that's not a problem. GM and Ford can build factories in Mexico, and we don't like it, but we don't tax them for it.
But if a Chinese company tries to do the same thing, we suddenly want to unwind the USMCA (which Trump himself proposed and signed)?
If their cars suck, then either convince the public they shouldn't buy them, or pass regulatory standards they cannot meet. If they are stealing technology (which the Japanese and Koreans are famous for) then use the FTC to crack down on that.
Do we want free trade with Mexico or not? I'm not advocating one way or the other. But if we want free trade, how can we tell Mexico which companies they can accept investment from?
This post was edited on 3/19/24 at 10:21 am
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:22 am to GumboPot
quote:
Do I wish we could live in a libertarian world view with no central planners? Absolutely. But that is not reality.
Help me to understand this.
What exactly would giving more power to the people who have destroyed our economy be beneficial to the little guy?
This government who yall believe has oppressed you, stolen elections, fought wars over oil... now you trust them to gain more control over your daily lives.
It makes no sense.
This post was edited on 3/19/24 at 10:23 am
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:25 am to GumboPot
quote:
Not advocating it it here. Just stating reality.
You're just stating the reality that you think we need central planning to make things fair. Definitely way, way different than advocating.
Posted on 3/19/24 at 10:25 am to Timeoday
I think all of North and South America should be a free trade zone with no tariffs or restrictions. Want to slow down the immigration across the border? Stabilizing the economies south of us would be a good first step.
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