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Started By
Message
re: Denver shooting victim identified as pro-cop vet, shot in front of son
Posted on 10/12/20 at 2:45 pm to ThatsNoMoon
Posted on 10/12/20 at 2:45 pm to ThatsNoMoon
That was my initial gut feeling but the more I thought about it, the more nuance I could see
1
Posted on 10/12/20 at 2:52 pm to Tiguar
Try this one.
Can you shoot a cop after they pepper spray you?
Can you shoot a cop after they pepper spray you?
This post was edited on 10/12/20 at 3:09 pm
Posted on 10/12/20 at 3:04 pm to roadGator
Oof
Posted on 10/12/20 at 3:06 pm to Tiguar
Indeed.
Posted on 10/12/20 at 3:27 pm to AggieHank86
quote:"logic" . . . no, that's not what I was trying to say.
you may be trying to say that I made a leap of logic.
Idiom is hard.
Words are hard.
Posted on 10/12/20 at 3:29 pm to roadGator
quote:
Can you shoot a cop after they pepper spray you?
Not when they are acting legally.
For what it's worth.. and I'm no lawyer but this is how I see the scenario.
-Verbal confrontation begins
-Keltner, who is twice the size of producer/Doloff, aggressively moves to get in producers/Doloffs face, escalating the conflict from verbal to intimidation/threat of physical contact.
-Doloff steps in between (or doesn't move) and attempts to move Keltner back.
-Keltner hits Doloff in face, again escalating the conflict from intimidation to physical violence.
-Doloff reacts to the attack by grabbing and raising his weapon.
-Keltner reacts by moving backwards and raising/spraying his mace (or whatever it is)
-Doloff reacts to the movement of raising the canister or perhaps the spray itself and shoots.
All in about 2 seconds. If Doloff reached for the mace before he was slapped then I may change my mind.. it just happens so fast it's hard for me to blame someone who was just hit in the head.
This post was edited on 10/12/20 at 3:50 pm
Posted on 10/12/20 at 3:30 pm to roadGator
quote:
Can you shoot a cop after they pepper spray you?
Or can a cop shoot you when you pepper spray him?
Posted on 10/12/20 at 3:40 pm to AggieHank86
quote:That confrontation involved a BLM a-hole repeatedly screaming "Mace ME motherf****r! Mace ME n**ga!"
I posit that a reporter is approaching a participant in a recent confrontation to ask him questions about that confrontation.
... The herd posits that his goal was to steal Kettner's gas canister
Yet you discount an assumption mace was at the center of the initial confrontation. How does that work, exactly?
Posted on 10/12/20 at 3:47 pm to roadGator
quote:
He shot a guy that was backing away.
Posted on 10/12/20 at 3:56 pm to ThatsNoMoon
quote:No evidence this happened. And that is where the whole hypotheses falls apart.
-Keltner, who is twice the size of producer/Doloff, aggressively moves to get in producers/Doloffs face, escalating the conflict from verbal to intimidation/threat of physical contact.
Posted on 10/12/20 at 4:26 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
ELBERT COUNTY, Colo. (CBS4)– The Elbert County Sheriff on Monday moved to cancel the concealed carry weapons permit of Matthew Dolloff, who is being held in the weekend shooting death in Denver of a ‘Patriot’ protester. Dolloff remains in custody for investigation of first-degree murder in the death of Lee Keltner.
quote:
“I have suspended it until the outcome of his criminal case and he will not be able to carry a concealed weapon in the State of Colorado,” said Elbert County Sheriff Tim Norton.
quote:
He told CBS4 Dolloff received the permit from Elbert County in June of 2018. “He did the CBI background check, paid his fees, everything came back clear and he was issued a CCW permit,” said Norton.
Denver CBS Affiliate
Posted on 10/12/20 at 4:46 pm to Wolfhound45
“Threat of physical contact” isn’t a justification for escalation to lethal force, even if Shaq is getting in your face asking you to “do something about it”
Posted on 10/12/20 at 4:47 pm to Lightning
quote:No, they have the burden of disproving that he THOUGHT he was acting n self defense. Big difference.
the State has the burden to disprove that Doloff was acting in self defense against a retreating victim, a victim who had actually been retreating since Doloff initiated the physical altercation. However will they manage such a daunting legal challenge?!
Posted on 10/12/20 at 4:50 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:Thank you, counsel. You have saved the taxpayers a large sum.
There is no need for further discussion. He is negligent.
This post was edited on 10/12/20 at 4:51 pm
Posted on 10/12/20 at 4:50 pm to AggieHank86
No, they have to disprove he was REASONABLY BELIEVING he was acting in self defense.
Bigger difference.
Bigger difference.
Posted on 10/12/20 at 4:52 pm to Tiguar
quote:you still have not bothered to read the statute?
No, they have to disprove he was REASONABLY BELIEVING he was acting in self defense.
Bigger difference.
It has an objective prong (which you cite) AND a subjective prong (which you continue to ignore).
Posted on 10/12/20 at 4:53 pm to AggieHank86
They have to have a good reason to believe they are in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.
Using your logic, I could walk up to you on the street and shoot you in the face, and say “I thought he was gonna pull a knife on me” and get off scot free.
Your bias against conservatives and this board continues to cloud your judgment
Using your logic, I could walk up to you on the street and shoot you in the face, and say “I thought he was gonna pull a knife on me” and get off scot free.
Your bias against conservatives and this board continues to cloud your judgment
Posted on 10/12/20 at 4:55 pm to ThatsNoMoon
quote:Dammit, we have a PATRIOT on one side and Leftist filth/scum on the other. Do you not understand this?
For what it's worth.. and I'm no lawyer but this is how I see the scenario.
Seriously, I think you are overstating Keltner’s actions a bit. He was probably just pissed about the BLM guy and just kind of reacted badly when approached by the reporter and Dolloff. I don’t think he was affirmatively looking to fight them. Absent the prior confrontation, I doubt he gets pissed at the reporter OR hits Doloff for trying to diffuse.
This post was edited on 10/12/20 at 5:07 pm
Posted on 10/12/20 at 4:59 pm to Tiguar
quote:Read the statute. I cannot do it for you.
Tiguar
quote:And the jury can either believe your claim of subjective fear ... or not.
Using your logic, I could walk up to you on the street and shoot you in the face, and say “I thought he was gonna pull a knife on me” and get off scot free.
Under the subjective prong, the fear need not necessarily be objectively reasonable, but the jury still must believe that it existed.
The jury’s eventual ruling does not alter the statute.
This post was edited on 10/12/20 at 5:05 pm
Posted on 10/12/20 at 5:05 pm to AggieHank86
I have.
LINK
LINK
The state just has to prove his fear was unreasonable.
I am starting to think you're trolling us, otherwise you're clearly an idiot.
LINK
quote:
. Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified
in using physical force
upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person in order to defend
himself or a third person
from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical
force by that other
person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be
necessary for that purpose.
quote:
Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser
degree of force is
inadequate and:
(a.) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he
or another person is in
imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or
(b.) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical
force against an
occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or
attempting to commit
burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or
(c.) The other person is committing or reasonably appears about to commit
kidnapping believes a lesser
degree of force is
inadequate and:
(a.) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he
or another person is in
imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or
(b.) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical
force against an
occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or
attempting to commit
burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or
(c.) The other person is committing or reasonably appears about to commit
kidnapping
LINK
quote:
N. Self Defense
Use of force is justified when a person reasonably believes that it is necessary for the defense of self or another against the immediate use of unlawful force. However, a person must use no more force than appears reasonably necessary in the circumstances
The state just has to prove his fear was unreasonable.
I am starting to think you're trolling us, otherwise you're clearly an idiot.
This post was edited on 10/12/20 at 5:06 pm
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