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re: Shooting at Orlando gay club: 50 Dead, 53 Injured, Shooter is Radical Muslim
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:23 pm to Shexter
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:23 pm to Shexter
I think that's a large misconception. People think that most police are steely eyed gun slingers that burn through a massive amount of ammo each year practicing.
This superior training allows them to do things with a weapon that most normal people can't. It's simply not true and shouldn't be perpetuated.
I think your average guy that shoots at least one competitions each year could out shoot 80% of the police force if not more.
This superior training allows them to do things with a weapon that most normal people can't. It's simply not true and shouldn't be perpetuated.
I think your average guy that shoots at least one competitions each year could out shoot 80% of the police force if not more.
2
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:23 pm to baldona
quote:
You are talking about most likely Full metal jacket .223 at less than 50 ft. I bet we could find it somewhere online, but I'd bet that at that range it could easily go through 2 people center mass and into a 3rd. Maybe through 3 or more. Shooting a dance floor of people with 1 30 round clip and you'd probably have over 100 entry wounds easily. Its sickening to think of.
That would make sense. Also makes since what Cat was saying earlier that probably 90% of the victims were killed in the first few minutes. Fricked up.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:25 pm to upgrayedd
I mean the risk of blood born contamination during an active shooter situation as opposed to the risk during the aftermath/cleanup. Sorry for the mixup. Wasn't trying to sound sarcastic.
But I would assume the last thing on someone's mind when experiencing an active shooter situation is blood born pathogen risk.. But the risk is absolutely real.
But I would assume the last thing on someone's mind when experiencing an active shooter situation is blood born pathogen risk.. But the risk is absolutely real.
This post was edited on 6/13/16 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:26 pm to dnm3305
quote:
He didn't say all gays were feminine. He was specifically talking about feminine gay men. You misinterpreted that and made an irrelevant tangent point. Of course not all gay men are feminine and the other guy never even said so much. He asked if gays THAT WERE FEMININE would naturally revert to a more masculine/brave role since biology and natural reaction usually take precedent when SHTF.
You need to relax. I don't think it was as nuanced as you are implying but that's just how I read it.He might not have intended to imply all gay people are feminine. I was just commenting on generalizations. Using lazy stereotypes hinder logical assessments.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:27 pm to bdevill
I was talking about exposure to the investigators
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:30 pm to armytiger16
I thought SOP after Columbine and VT was to take down active shooters immediately. Has there been an explanation of why they waited so long?
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:31 pm to eitek1
quote:
I think your average guy that shoots at least one competitions each year could out shoot 80% of the police force if not more.
Certainly. But, shooting in a competition or at a range is quite different than shooting in a situation like this.
I know many departments have started requiring all of their officers to go through some sort of active shooter training. I've been a part of quite a few really in depth active shooter trainings and the adrenaline alone, even in training, changes everything. I'm not saying that these trainings make one more competent than a CC holder with military experience, but I would think that a cop that has been through these trainings would be more competent than an everyday CC holder.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:32 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
They do their yearly qualification then the gun goes right back into the holster until next year.
YEP,YEP... this with the exception of the La. State Police
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:33 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:That wouldn't really seem like a prudent policy, right?
I thought SOP after Columbine and VT was to take down active shooters immediately. Has there been an explanation of why they waited so long?
I mean, each situation is different. You definitely want to minimize loss of life obviously, but I don't think barging in blindly is always going to be the best thing to do in every situation.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:34 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
I thought SOP after Columbine and VT was to take down active shooters immediately. Has there been an explanation of why they waited so long?
This is what I don't understand. Maybe he was shooting from a somewhat protected position, but with that many people in such a confined space it seems like a few people could have taken him down pretty quickly. It's tough to know how things actually shake out if you've fortunately never been through something like that though.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:34 pm to baldona
quote:
I also don't understand why any of you non gun guys think that a CC holder at a 'club' would be drunk. That's a horrible assumption. Plenty of people go out and don't drink, and I've never met anyone that drinks while they CC. It's against the law for one, but most people that CC are actually very competent.
Sober people don't tend to stay at bars till 2am. Yes sober people go out but 2am is sloppy drunk time.
It's just not worth talking about because it's illegal for a Florida CC holder to carry in a bar.
Even if it wasn't illegal, it isn't very likely that sober cc holder would be at a gay bar at 2am.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:35 pm to shel311
But the alternative is what we saw in Columbine, officers in SWAT gear waiting for the shooters to empty their rounds into innocent teenagers before breaching.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:36 pm to UpToPar
quote:
Certainly. But, shooting in a competition or at a range is quite different than shooting in a situation like this.
I know many departments have started requiring all of their officers to go through some sort of active shooter training. I've been a part of quite a few really in depth active shooter trainings and the adrenaline alone, even in training, changes everything. I'm not saying that these trainings make one more competent than a CC holder with military experience, but I would think that a cop that has been through these trainings would be more competent than an everyday CC holder.
True. Not everyone gets to participate in AS training, but competitions (defensive pistol matches, in particular) are good because there are basic rules built into the match that require shooters to shoot from cover/concealment. Also the adrenaline rush and movement elevates heart rate. Any training focusing on accuracy, speed, and cover definitely helps.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:37 pm to SabiDojo
quote:I think you make the best decision you have based on the information you have, but they're obviously not going to bat 1.000.
But the alternative is what we saw in Columbine, officers in SWAT gear waiting for the shooters to empty their rounds into innocent teenagers before breaching.
To flip it, do we even know how many shooters there were at that moment? Sending them in blindly could just be sending a bunch of SWAT guys into really bad spots as well.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:38 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
about exposure to the investigators
HIV would not survive in spilled blood.
Oxygen exposure kills it pretty rapidly.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:39 pm to shel311
Cops said the backdrop for their shooting was a concrete wall.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:40 pm to tigerpimpbot
quote:
It sounds to me from that timeline from the Wapo article that many of those killed were taken out by the cops when they stormed the building at 5 a.m.
Not sure why you say that the Post article I read said that after the 2nd gun fight with police (off duty being first) that he went into the bathroom with 5 or so people in there.
Given that, most would of had to been killed early. If I had to guess he shot 1-2 clips into the dance floor and that is where most of the victims were, then police came in, and he retreated to a bathroom.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:40 pm to upgrayedd
Adrenalin in a shooting competition is a lot different than adrenalin in a situation where someone is shooting back at you.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:42 pm to shel311
quote:
To flip it, do we even know how many shooters there were at that moment? Sending them in blindly could just be sending a bunch of SWAT guys into really bad spots as well
But that's the point. They go to work every day knowing it could be their last, and their purpose is to protect the public, even if it means sacrificing their own lives. That's the job.
I agree that you do the best you can with the information you have, but you can't lose sight of the big picture.
Remember Paris? That theater? How long did the police take to get into position, to gather intel? And the shooters were systematically lining people up to execute them.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:43 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
I thought SOP after Columbine and VT was to take down active shooters immediately. Has there been an explanation of why they waited so long?
I believe I remember hearing that they stayed back because he had a device possibly explosive on him.
I know most people think it's like tv where the cops break down the door and fly arpund like superman shooting the bad guy
In my experience as a fire fighter, speaking with our chief that is an officer and participating in joint training exercise for things like this. We are taught not to become a victim yourself if possible.
If he had a device they likely wanted to make sure not to barge in and get multiple responders and even more people injured had he detonated an explosive device.
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