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Started By
Message
re: Shooting at Orlando gay club: 50 Dead, 53 Injured, Shooter is Radical Muslim
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:48 pm to UpToPar
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:48 pm to UpToPar
quote:
Certainly. But, shooting in a competition or at a range is quite different than shooting in a situation like this. I know many departments have started requiring all of their officers to go through some sort of active shooter training. I've been a part of quite a few really in depth active shooter trainings and the adrenaline alone, even in training, changes everything. I'm not saying that these trainings make one more competent than a CC holder with military experience, but I would think that a cop that has been through these trainings would be more competent than an everyday CC holder.
Yes but a huge portion of mental stability in a situation like this comes from your natural personality. Give a weak minded OT 'beta' personality all the training in the world and that is nothing compared to someone with the right personality and mind frame with little to no training. It happens in combat all the time. Some people have it and some don't.
There are certainly a ton of good cops, but again the average cop is not a Type A alpha killer. I went to HS with 4 people that are cops now and none of them would I want to 'share a foxhole' with if the crap hit the fan no matter how much training they had.
So yes I'd much rather have someone who excelled in life and education that is a CC holder over your average police officer. The fact of the matter is its not a job that has a huge standard for intelligence.
That's nothing at all against police, it's just that your average CC holder is extremely competent compared to your average police officer. Way more so than someone uncomfortable with guns would ever know.
This post was edited on 6/13/16 at 12:50 pm
3
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:49 pm to UpToPar
I agree. That's why I said it's the next best thing to force on force AS training.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:49 pm to TigerDat
They are almost always "possible explosive device" scenarios now. So what we are saying is that we are going to sacrifice more lives of civilians because we don't want to risk the lives of emergency responders.
I'm not trying to be anti-cop. I'm just saying it's clear that the current modus operandi of these terrorists warrants a re-eavulation of how we handle these terrible events.
I'm not trying to be anti-cop. I'm just saying it's clear that the current modus operandi of these terrorists warrants a re-eavulation of how we handle these terrible events.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:50 pm to TigerDat
quote:
I believe I remember hearing that they stayed back because he had a device possibly explosive on him.
Correct.
He holed up in a bathroom with 5 hostages after blazing through 45+ or so people in the main part and talked to negotiators for 3 hours and said he had bombs.
There were almost 3 hours without a shot being fired in between initial rampage and SWAT seige.
SWAT blew a hole in the wall then tore it down and shooter emerged and was lit the frick up by 9 SWAT officers.
I bet he has 50 holes in him.
This post was edited on 6/13/16 at 12:53 pm
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:51 pm to SabiDojo
quote:
They are almost always "possible explosive device" scenarios now. So what we are saying is that we are going to sacrifice more lives of civilians because we don't want to risk the lives of emergency responders.
I'm not trying to be anti-cop. I'm just saying it's clear that the current modus operandi of these terrorists warrants a re-eavulation of how we handle these terrible events
It's a numbers game. Waste everyone or waste half?
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:53 pm to upgrayedd
I agree, but such calculations have cost, especially when you are talking about something as fragile as a democracy/republic.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 12:57 pm to SabiDojo
It's pretty standard terrorist tactic. Cause a mass casualty incident, then attack again one the first responders come in.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 1:00 pm to upgrayedd
The Kingdom was such a badass movie and they did this.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 1:00 pm to baldona
quote:
Yes but a huge portion of mental stability in a situation like this comes from your natural personality. Give a weak minded OT 'beta' personality all the training in the world and that is nothing compared to someone with the right personality and mind frame with little to no training. It happens in combat all the time. Some people have it and some don't. There are certainly a ton of good cops, but again the average cop is not a Type A alpha killer. I went to HS with 4 people that are cops now and none of them would I want to 'share a foxhole' with if the crap hit the fan no matter how much training they had. So yes I'd much rather have someone who excelled in life and education that is a CC holder over your average police officer. The fact of the matter is its not a job that has a huge standard for intelligence. That's nothing at all against police, it's just that your average CC holder is extremely competent compared to your average police officer. Way more so than someone uncomfortable with guns would ever know.
Where do you get the idea that the average CC holder is more intelligent than the average cop?
And where do you get the idea that intelligence is a factor that affects ones ability to competently handle such a situation? There are plenty of military guys that are dumb as a box of rocks that would be some of the most competent humans on the planet in this type of situation and there are plenty of intelligent people that would have no idea what to do.
I think you have a really distorted perception of your average CC permit holder.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 1:09 pm to Rhino5
Posted on 6/13/16 at 1:09 pm to Rhino5
quote:
Some witnesses saying there was more than one shooter and someone blocking the exit.
I saw quote from a guy that said he thought the gun man was chasing him so he slammed the exit and held it shut. It's was pretty tough to read cause he knew it was his fault more people died.
I'll try to find it .
Posted on 6/13/16 at 1:16 pm to baldona
quote:
baldona
Have an upvote for that entire post sir. You are spot on. I am constantly amazed at how people assume cops will always be there to save the day. It seems that so few people are self aware enough to realize how venerable one constantly is.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 1:17 pm to SabiDojo
quote:
They are almost always "possible explosive device" scenarios now. So what we are saying is that we are going to sacrifice more lives of civilians because we don't want to risk the lives of emergency responders
As someone stated it is a numbers game. Remember these responders are also civilians when off duty also and have families. They do what they can as quickly and safely as possible.
Similar to a structure fire. If my team is preparing for entry but the roof starts collapsing we may be told to abort because if we happen to get knocked unconscious or stuck under something then that is more victims that could have been spared.
It's a tough call to make and I am glad that I don't have that authority but unfortunantly sometimes it's necessary.
Being a first responder isn't for the faint of heart because sometimes tough decisions have to be made no matter how bad you want to get in there and save lives.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 1:21 pm to UpToPar
quote:
I think you have a really distorted perception of your average CC permit holder
It's not about the perception of the CC holders intelligence or competence. It's about the average cops intelligence and competence, which I think anyone can admit is below average. I know quite a few guys I went to school with that are now cops and some of them were borderline retarded
Posted on 6/13/16 at 1:34 pm to SabiDojo
quote:
But that's the point. They go to work every day knowing it could be their last, and their purpose is to protect the public, even if it means sacrificing their own lives. That's the job. I agree that you do the best you can with the information you have, but you can't lose sight of the big picture. Remember Paris? That theater? How long did the police take to get into position, to gather intel? And the shooters were systematically lining people up to execute them.
Well, if SWAT is ready and outside the building and they hear gunshots, then I'd definitely agree that all negotations are off, and it's time to make an immediatley plan to get indoors.
Now without hearing gunshots, I don't think a SWAT team should automatically move unless they think it's the right time. I know you said they prepare and are aware of what could happen, but you also kinda need them alive for any chance to rescue survivors, so you have to send them in when you think you have the advantage.
This post was edited on 6/13/16 at 1:36 pm
Posted on 6/13/16 at 1:34 pm to Dire Wolf
Yeah I saw that video.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 1:35 pm to TheCaterpillar
quote:
The Kingdom was such a badass movie and they did this.
Hell, the VC were using similar tactics 45 years ago
Posted on 6/13/16 at 1:37 pm to dnm3305
I'll ask again, what does intelligence have to do with competence? Are you suggesting that you would rather an MD with a CC permit to be in a position over an high school dropout that joined the military at 18?
I fail to see how intelligence equates to competence in this situation.
Not to mention, I'm betting that on any given day, there are more current or former cops carrying off duty than any other profession. So these CC permit holders and cops may very well be one in the same.
I fail to see how intelligence equates to competence in this situation.
Not to mention, I'm betting that on any given day, there are more current or former cops carrying off duty than any other profession. So these CC permit holders and cops may very well be one in the same.
Posted on 6/13/16 at 1:40 pm to baldona
quote:
So yes I'd much rather have someone who excelled in life and education that is a CC holder over your average police officer. The fact of the matter is its not a job that has a huge standard for intelligence.
The smart ones in the police force move up in the force to the supervisor and desk jobs.
The guys on the street are the lowest men at the station.
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