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re: Scientific American: NOLA screwed, new levee system obsolete in 4 years
Posted on 4/12/19 at 2:33 pm to 995webmaster
Posted on 4/12/19 at 2:33 pm to 995webmaster
quote:This occurred. Let us face it, late 19th century and early 20th century were wrought with delusions of grandeur pushed by engineers. Look at how long the Panama Canal took between the French and the Americans. The French MIGHT have finished it had Ferdinand deLesseps not insisted on a sea-level canal.
It was built in the place it needed to be, and the original footprint is fine. They expanded into places they had no business building. 19th century engineers had a lot of hubris about their ability to tame nature. Their descendants have found out otherwise.
The same happened in New Orleans, only that with the Baldwin Wood pumps, they drained the swamps, eliminated the mosquitoes and made "dry land" habitable without thinking about the subsidence.
To those who say move New Orleans, or it was built in the wrong place, or whatever, someone else mentioned that nearly 2/3 of the continental United States is drained/accessed by the tributaries that feed into the Mississippi River. So much of America's commerce is dependent upon this system. We could not simply decide the river can close up, or we can let it go where it wants and expect U.S. commerce and U.S. daily life to simply continue without massive affects and costs to everyone in this country.
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Posted on 4/12/19 at 2:34 pm to lsu13lsu
quote:
Your options must not be in line with the US Army Corps of Engineers ideas. They control the entire thing and whatever they say goes even if it is a terrible idea. I think they like terrible ideas best because that gives them work to do later fixing it.
John Lopez Ph.D., is quoted in the SA article as saying, “But the crisis never really was over. We improved the system, but we have always been under threat.”
Dr. Lopez is cited as the director of the coastal and community program for the Lake Pontchartrain Basin Foundation, an environmental group.
A quick Google search shows Dr. Lopez previously worked for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers in Project Management for the Coastal Restoration Branch.
LINK
...later work fixing it...?
Posted on 4/12/19 at 2:38 pm to BottomlandBrew
We need to get together for home brews.
This post was edited on 4/12/19 at 2:38 pm
Posted on 4/12/19 at 2:40 pm to Nado Jenkins83
quote:
Inflatable levees. Booom
Already have them.
It is called a Tiger Dam, and used for low sections.
Posted on 4/12/19 at 2:57 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
look at the landmass holland is trying to protect.....not comparable to the US. It is also their #1 threat. Where, being a superpower, the US has other pressing issues.
Instead of comparing The Netherlands to the USA you should think more applicable to the area we are discussing. If one were to superimpose The Netherlands on Louisiana it would cover this state from the line of Alexandria-Lafayette and over to the Mississippi state line. So really almost an identical area that is prone to flooding here.
If memory serves me correct from living there approximately 2/3rds of The Netherlands is in a flood zone. Again more similarities.
From a weather standpoint while The Netherlands doesn't suffer from hurricanes, they have a far greater frequency than we do of storms off the North Sea. Many of these storms approach or exceed Tropical Storm sustained winds and rainfall.
River flows are affected similar to spring ice melts here applicable to the Mississippi in as much as the Maas and the Rhine originate in areas with snowfall.
Similar to the lower Mississippi, the deltas of the Dutch rivers are heavily vested in petrochemical plants.
From the standpoint of a threat to this state, I'd put flooding and land loss as one of the major problems for this state.
quote:
the ditch engineers don't do anything different than American engineers, except being 100% green. Don't give me that shite, I have worked with them.
I have lived there. I never flooded. They must be doing something very different.
quote:
lete ask you.... Do YOU want to live on a house that floats?
Why not? Would you rather shovel flood debris out of your house each time it pours or the rivers rise or would you rather your house simply rose up on the pilings keeping you high and dry? Seems to me they are thinking out of the box in some areas and more progressively instead of our constant method of throwing FEMA money at folks and letting them rebuild in the exact same areas only to see them suffer the consequences again in another 5-10 years. Their method allows development in areas that would be at risk otherwise. Our method is just the true definition of insanity: repeating the same action and expecting a different result.
This post was edited on 4/12/19 at 2:58 pm
Posted on 4/12/19 at 3:04 pm to 995webmaster
This is what happens when you build something in a place where you should never have built.
Posted on 4/12/19 at 3:11 pm to Cymry Teigr
Funny story I may have told on here before.
We're going over some designs one day and a Dutch engineer asks what our annual rainfall is. An American civil replies it's "about 60." The Dutch guy nods and says, "60 centimeters. That's not too bad. We can make that work." The American quickly jumps back in and corrects it to 60 inches. The Dutch engineers jaw hit the floor so fricking hard it made a dent. The Dutch engineer suddenly realized the challenge he was up against. That's what New Orleans is up against. New Orleans faces threats from the ocean, from the sky, and from the ground.
We're going over some designs one day and a Dutch engineer asks what our annual rainfall is. An American civil replies it's "about 60." The Dutch guy nods and says, "60 centimeters. That's not too bad. We can make that work." The American quickly jumps back in and corrects it to 60 inches. The Dutch engineers jaw hit the floor so fricking hard it made a dent. The Dutch engineer suddenly realized the challenge he was up against. That's what New Orleans is up against. New Orleans faces threats from the ocean, from the sky, and from the ground.
Posted on 4/12/19 at 3:14 pm to Cymry Teigr
quote:so you want to pick and choose....the US has to take care of all of Louisiana, and every other coastal area. So what I said is correct as it is way more land mass.
Instead of comparing The Netherlands to the USA you should think more applicable to the area we are discussing.
quote:they really aren't. Their system is designed for a 5,000 year storm. Yea plenty more than us. But they have to worry about something the size of South LA. While the US has to worry about being a super power. And the amount of coastline from Cali to Washington, Maine all the way to the tip of Texas. You are comparing apples to oranges.
I have lived there. I never flooded. They must be doing something very different.
quote:ok send me a pic of you house that floats and get back to me.
lete ask you.... Do YOU want to live on a house that floats?
Why not?
Posted on 4/12/19 at 3:17 pm to BottomlandBrew
quote:I love the let's let the ditch engineers solve this, response. They don't do anything different than other engineers around the world.
Funny story I may have told on here before.
We're going over some designs one day and a Dutch engineer asks what our annual rainfall is. An American civil replies it's "about 60." The Dutch guy nods and says, "60 centimeters. That's not too bad. We can make that work." The American quickly jumps back in and corrects it to 60 inches. The Dutch engineers jaw hit the floor so fricking hard it made a dent. The Dutch engineer suddenly realized the challenge he was up against. That's what New Orleans is up against. New Orleans faces threats from the ocean, from the sky, and from the ground.
Posted on 4/12/19 at 3:17 pm to Cymry Teigr
The Dutch have a political advantage which you noted, 2/3 of the country is subject to flooding which makes it much easier to garner the political will and funding required to make sure they don’t. That’s why they have 1000 years protection and NOLA has 100 year.
It’s also important to note the levees don’t just stop working in 4 years, sea level rise subsidence and settlement just gradually reduce their effectiveness every year that passes if you don’t do anything. So maybe in 5 years they only defend against the 99 or 98 year event instead of the 100.
To the guy saying why didn’t they do something besides levees, the engineers tried. They were going to put gates in Rigolets and Chef passes to keep surge out the lake entirely, but the environmental groups sued and got a Federal injunction to prevent its construction.
It’s also important to note the levees don’t just stop working in 4 years, sea level rise subsidence and settlement just gradually reduce their effectiveness every year that passes if you don’t do anything. So maybe in 5 years they only defend against the 99 or 98 year event instead of the 100.
To the guy saying why didn’t they do something besides levees, the engineers tried. They were going to put gates in Rigolets and Chef passes to keep surge out the lake entirely, but the environmental groups sued and got a Federal injunction to prevent its construction.
Posted on 4/12/19 at 3:19 pm to alphaandomega
quote:BTW I don't disagree with this. NOLA should have never grown to what it is today past the settlement on the bluff in the quarter. IMO there should be a shipping channel past NOLA and let the river do what it wants to do. But that would wipe out every settlement past that. Venice, Houma, etc.
This is what happens when you build something in a place where you should never have built.
Posted on 4/12/19 at 3:22 pm to CarRamrod
But they kind of do. They look at things differently. They understand the importance of balancing water inside the protection system vs. outside. They're able to walk that tightrope of too much water being on one side or the other.
And yes, at some point we need to have a few homebrews.
And yes, at some point we need to have a few homebrews.
This post was edited on 4/12/19 at 3:38 pm
Posted on 4/12/19 at 3:25 pm to cave canem
quote:
Spending one cent of Federal money on this instead of relocation assistance was a huge mistake that should never have happened nor should ever be repeated.
Allow me to offer my rebuttal as succinctly as possible....
frick you.
Posted on 4/12/19 at 3:49 pm to BottomlandBrew
quote:kinda is very obligatory. I mean you tell a home owner to put his house of stilts or else it is getting flooded here. It's a different set of rules.
But they kind of do. They look at things differently. They understand the importance of balancing water inside the protection system vs. outside. They're able to walk that tightrope of too much water being on one side or the other
This post was edited on 4/12/19 at 9:05 pm
Posted on 4/12/19 at 4:00 pm to BottomlandBrew
quote:
it was not a plan we could have politicians buy in to.
because they won't see the direct reward. Which is why American politicians are sending this country down the shitter. They don't care about things 20yrs from now because they likely won't be in office.
Also it would likely be paid for with taxes so all the constituents will bitch about taxes. So instead we'll all sit around with our thumbs up our asses complaining about all the problems.
Posted on 4/12/19 at 4:52 pm to Nado Jenkins83
(no message)
Posted on 4/12/19 at 5:06 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
I love the let's let the ditch engineers solve this, response.
Are Dutch levees and sea walls sinking? Do they have the same issues as NO?
NO has more rain, sea level is the same. What about storm vulnerabilities? Hurricanes worse?
Interesting discussion
Posted on 4/12/19 at 5:09 pm to alphaandomega
quote:
This is what happens when you build something in a place where you should never have built.
Then where do we build.
It seems like everywhere something is built, someone can list a number of problems.
Not one place on this Earth is a perfect place to live.
It is either too hot or cold, this place has earthquakes, this place has tornadoes, this place has hurricanes, this place floods in a heavy rain, this place is too dry to grow crops, and the list goes on.
Each area has its own mitigating factors that we as human society need to adapt and/or overcome.
Posted on 4/12/19 at 5:16 pm to Tarps99
quote:You don’t build in a location where the changing of the river helps to prevent the erosion of your state.
Then where do we build.
That is a good start.
You also don’t artificially levee said river so that you don’t destroy your landmass.
Posted on 4/12/19 at 5:17 pm to 995webmaster
walls are immoral
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