re: Megachurch as a business

First off - I appreciate the response. You bring good points up and the insults to my intelligence are at the very least, thinly veiled instead of the standard outright vitriol common around here. I'm guilty of it myself, but I can thank you for not doing it anyway. Now, lets get to it.

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As long as "sinful" humans occupy these churches, the church can go wrong.

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Well aware of these teachings due to my 14 years of Catholic education, as well as a family friend writing a very prominent book on the catholic faith, blessed by St. John Paul II. I have read the Catechism of the catholic church cover to cover, as well as the entire new testament, and most of the old.

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So you just want to make your own religion and moral code. All the shitty humans on the earth and you think that'll work out?

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I am not my brother's keeper, just an individual that holds no sway over anyone outside of how my actions affect them. I would hope all people would become more in tune with their own motivations and feelings rather than telling others how to do it, because knowing yourself better is the best way to keep your own consciousness from manifesting itself in a negative way in other people's lives, when we should be striving for harmony and charity with each other.

What is a moral code really other than what someone told another is right? The only real code to live by is logical, easily thought up and easily understood, and whether Jesus said it or not, "Love your neighbor as yourself" pretty much sums up morality in totality. The golden rule. Whatever you want to call it. That idea, if followed, removes all need for organized religion. Christianity does not own a monopoly on this idea.

What I don't understand is people's willingness to accept a gaggle of ideas wholesale just because their ancestors believed it. I understand the power of "tribal" knowledge, but it does befuddle me.

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What the frick is "self discovery" anyways? People always assume theres a universal understanding of what this means. What happens at the end of "self discovery"? How does it fit into all of humanity?

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I try to understand it as "understanding" where my natural urges, feelings and reactions to life come from, and trying to place myself within the community of humanity in a way that does not take away from anyone else's experience. I meditate a few times a week, which is essentially what prayer is though people don't really like to admit that. I get the same feeling from meditiation that I got as a kid when praying.

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You dont know it, but you're inadvertently using some very basic assumptions that are typically rooted in God-like beliefs.

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On the contrary, I know it quite well, but I believe that religion is based on our natural human behavior and desire for peace and harmony with our surroundings rather than from some deity sending us super secret messages through a few key people. We are agreeing with each other here in that morality is a naturally occurring idea independent of religion, by the way. Religion gives people a meaning or goal behind it when I'm not so sure that is needed.

Do you need the threat of punishment to make you do the right thing? That is essentially what organized religion is about after teaching you how to live - be good or pay the price.

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Like I said, you just want to make your own version of religion, but to think even that could avoid the sinful nature of humans is naive.

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Who said we need a religion at all in the first place is my question. I agree that following a religion is a good thing (avoiding "sin") if you can put aside the fantastical illogical parts of it. If you can't, after sincerely trying to, then reliance on self analysis, meditation and commitment to charity and service are an adequate substitute in my view.

Religion is not bad - profiting off of it is, past a certain point / standard of living. Being a true follower of Jesus and acting as a Shepard of his flock never did and never will involve driving a Land Rover or living in a mansion. That was my whole point. You would be better off doing your own thing, alone, than following these shysters into the void.

I live in birmingham as well, so I’m well aware of the dynamics. That said, I just thought you were exaggerating a bit. To think that a parent would complain about their kids wanting to go to church. Took me a second to process.

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in addition to a parsonage, most pastors get a "housing allowance" each month. this is money set aside from their monthly salary that is not taxed. they are supposed to use this money for things around the house, but can obviously pocket it if they want.

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Learn your IRS LAWS!
IF they have a parsonage they cannot have a housing allowance.

Housing allowance is taxed for FICA at 15% Anything that was not used for upkeep of home has to be treated as ordinary income and reported as self employment

Ministers are treated like self employed and pay ALL of their own self employment taxes, social security, medicare etc

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mindset of people who are apart of a MLM company.

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Spot on.

True evangelicals and MLM peddlers use the same psychological selling techniques to "sell" you their product. Constant pressuring of prospective clients and inflating the benefits of "membership" are used in an effort to beat you down psychologically until you relent and agree.


Not many Catholics running around recruiting people to come to their church for free are there? Their clergy have lots of issues with the public perception of them, but incessant pressure to join and requirements for donations aren't on that hit list. One of the few things the original Christians still get right today IMO.

100% fact

No less than one-third of my income AND housing allowance went to Uncle Sam for all types of taxing when serving as member of the clergy. I must have missed "Making Off Like a Bandit" tutorial.

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That said, I just thought you were exaggerating a bit. To think that a parent would complain about their kids wanting to go to church. Took me a second to process.

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Fair enough. I distilled my comments down for an internet message board for the sake of entertainment. "Constant pressure" was probably an exaggeration, though for some insane reason COTH seems to come up in conversations on a weekly basis in our lives. My general feelings are religion and church attendance are personal choices and I find it very off putting when people invite you to their church unprovoked, so maybe I'm just more sensitive to it. I grew up Catholic and that just didn't happen in the Catholic Church.

And my kids don't want to go to church. It's more that if they're being forced to go to church, they'd rather go to one where all their friends are going. We've told them when they're 16 and driving, they can go to any church they want to. My oldest just turned 16 recently and hasn't taken us up on that offer yet.

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Housing allowance is taxed for FICA at 15% Anything that was not used for upkeep of home has to be treated as ordinary income and reported as self employment

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Yep. And usually churches foot the bill on that 15%

Housing allowance can be pretty broad so basically, if done correctly, ministers can live expense free while paying taxes on a small “salary”

It seems to always be Christian megachurches too.

Maybe other religions aren’t as dumb? I have yet to see one megatemple rabbi on TV asking for a new jet.

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Yep. And usually churches foot the bill on that 15%

Housing allowance can be pretty broad so basically, if done correctly, ministers can live expense free while paying taxes on a small “salary

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Yeah, not exactly. I really don't feel like digging into it. But my dad has been a pastor for 29 years.

He owed taxes almost every year. And he didn't make a total package of over $45k/yr until 2008. There were years he made more before then, but he was bi-vocational.

Pastors make so little, that having protection in the form housing allowance is the one of the few ways they can stay afloat financially. Something like 90% of pastors are bi-vocational.

Also, for everyone in the "tax churches" group. The income you believe the feds would be getting would dry up. 95% of churches have 75 members or less, and can barely keep the lights on. Almost all of that 95% would have to close their doors if taxed. And mega churches would take a HUGE hit as well. The feds would see less than 5% of the projected income most studies say taxing churches would generate.