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re: Listening to a podcast, guys says the holocaust is worst crime in history: agree or no?
Posted on 9/20/18 at 7:28 pm to Tiger1242
Posted on 9/20/18 at 7:28 pm to Tiger1242
If people have a legitimate interest in this subject there is a really good book by Steven Pinker "The Better Angels of Our Nature"
He shows how the prevalence of violence has decreased over the last couple thousand years of human history - including how once common atrocities like murder, warfare, and genocide have become more and more uncommon
He shows how the prevalence of violence has decreased over the last couple thousand years of human history - including how once common atrocities like murder, warfare, and genocide have become more and more uncommon
1
Posted on 9/20/18 at 7:34 pm to OweO
Whenever something bad happens we say thoughts and prayers and add a "we dont know Gods plan". We shouldn't worry about evil because it is part of his plan and god is directly responsible for evil according to Isaiah 45:7
Posted on 9/20/18 at 7:44 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
. For Stalin and Mao, you can at least argue that there was SOME theoretical underpinning to their atrocities.
The Holodomor was deliberate.
And Stalin's death prevented him from carrying out his own Holocaust.
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:04 pm to Tiger1242
Nope
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:15 pm to Tiger1242
There have been genocides since WWII mainly in African countries especially Sudan. I have no idea how many people were killed in these genocides.
If I remember correctly, during the Holocaust, there were over 200k prisoners right? Not sure how many of those died.
I think slavery was a pretty horrible situation. People were treated as property. They were treated like animals.. Maybe worse than animals. While I understand it was a practice of the times, I just don't think any human being should be forced to submit to another human. But it was legal so technically it wasn't a crime.
When we dropped nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it killed over 100k civilians. What that a crime? If you get into specifics, and what was actually considered a crime then I would say it is one of the worst crimes... But I am sure if I digged deep enough into history I could find find something to make an argument on one side or the other.
If I remember correctly, during the Holocaust, there were over 200k prisoners right? Not sure how many of those died.
I think slavery was a pretty horrible situation. People were treated as property. They were treated like animals.. Maybe worse than animals. While I understand it was a practice of the times, I just don't think any human being should be forced to submit to another human. But it was legal so technically it wasn't a crime.
When we dropped nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it killed over 100k civilians. What that a crime? If you get into specifics, and what was actually considered a crime then I would say it is one of the worst crimes... But I am sure if I digged deep enough into history I could find find something to make an argument on one side or the other.
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:27 pm to Tiger1242
Japan did the same and worse, and to more people at the same time. So maybe not even?
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:29 pm to Tigeralum2008
quote:Well, give me a number.
Mongol death tallies can't even sniff the level of atrocities committed in the 20th century
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:31 pm to Tiger1242
I mean you could argue it’s not even the worst thing to happen to the Jews in recorded history. Pretty sure being conquered and enslaved by the Egyptians was worse.
Not belittling the holocaust or anything. It’s pretty terrifying what human beings are capable of doing.
Not belittling the holocaust or anything. It’s pretty terrifying what human beings are capable of doing.
This post was edited on 9/20/18 at 8:33 pm
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:35 pm to Tiger1242
As a percentage of the world’s population killed/enslaved/brutalized/etc., what the Mongols did all across Europe and Asia (especially China) and what the various Islamic invasions of India did were worse. Timurlane is way up there. It doesn’t get a ton of pub in the US, but what a lot of the armies did in the Thirty Years War was horrific on a huge scale. Modern scholars are starting to make a case that what Julius Caesar did in Gaul approaches that kind of scale as well.
This post was edited on 9/20/18 at 8:45 pm
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:36 pm to elprez00
quote:
I mean you could argue it’s not even the worst thing to happen to the Jews in recorded history. Pretty sure being conquered and enslaved by the Egyptians was worse.
Im going to disagree with that one.
Slavery in the ancient world really wasn’t that awful compared to what we today think of as slavery.
They had to do forced labor and I’m sure they faced some atrocities at the hands of their captors. They also likely were able to live in their own communities, have families, and maintain at least the core of their culture
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:36 pm to molsusports
quote:RIP LucasP
worst crime in history:....?
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:39 pm to elprez00
quote:
I mean you could argue it’s not even the worst thing to happen to the Jews in recorded history. Pretty sure being conquered and enslaved by the Egyptians was worse.
Not belittling the holocaust or anything. It’s pretty terrifying what human beings are capable of doing
Given global and Jewish populations at the time, what the Romans did to the Jews was probably the worst of all, especially during and after the Third Jewish Revolt. I’ve seen estimates of nearly 4 million dead - which would dwarf the Holocaust in terms of the entirety of global Jewish population killed and percentage of global population killed in general. What the Romans did was basically taking an entire state like North Carolina (Cyraenica) and most of a state like Virginia (Palestinia) and essentially wipe them clean of human civilization.
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:46 pm to AbuTheMonkey
quote:
Given global and Jewish populations at the time, what the Romans did to the Jews was probably the worst of all, especially during and after the Third Jewish Revolt. I’ve seen estimates of nearly 4 million dead - which would dwarf the Holocaust in terms of the entirety of global Jewish population killed and percentage of global population killed in general. What the Romans did was basically taking an entire state like North Carolina (Cyraenica) and most of a state like Virginia (Palestinia) and essentially wipe them clean of human civilization.
Not defending this in the slightest because genocide is obviously never okay...
At least the Romans had cause for this. The Jews killed something like 200,000 Romans in their final revolt and were constantly giving the Romans all kinds of problems.
Jews in Germany did absolutely nothing to the Germans
Historical aside, it’s interesting that the Roman emperor Trajan is considered one of the greatest Roman emperors of all time, yet he was the one who committed the aforementioned genocide on the Jews and also persecuted Christians harshly.
Since most of us in the West learn history from a Judo-Christian centric viewpoint, it’s interesting he doesn’t get chastised much for this.
This post was edited on 9/20/18 at 8:47 pm
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:48 pm to Tiger1242
I agree. Holocaust is the worst crime in history and it isn't even close. No point in overthinking it. It's #1.
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:54 pm to Tiger1242
quote:
worst crime in history
Burning the Library of Alexandria
the things listed resulted in loss of tons of lives, the burning of the library lost tons of knowledge forever
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:54 pm to Apache
quote:
Holocaust is the worst crime in history and it isn't even close. No point in overthinking it. It's #1.
By just #s of deaths, it's not first. Not even during its own time period.
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:56 pm to Apache
quote:
I agree. Holocaust is the worst crime in history and it isn't even close. No point in overthinking it. It's #1.
What’s your reasoning?
Other genocides/conquests Killed more.
The Germans just applied their typical Prussian efficiency and that famous Germanic precision.
Posted on 9/20/18 at 8:57 pm to Tiger1242
quote:
Not defending this in the slightest because genocide is obviously never okay...
At least the Romans had cause for this. The Jews killed something like 200,000 Romans in their final revolt and were constantly giving the Romans all kinds of problems.
Certainly - I actually almost mentioned it but didn’t want to give ammunition to the Anti-Semites that pop up on here on occasion. The Jews, especially in Cyraenica, were troublesome for the Romans, to say the least. That and Carthage were the two quintessential moments of “making a desert and calling it peace” among dozens for the Romans. Not totally without justification, though, I agree.
For the record, it was actually Hadrian that oversaw the response to the Third Revolt. Trajan was (for his time) relatively lenient towards Christians. He didn’t actively seek them out and prosecute them as long as they gave the correct respect due the emperor (his letters with Pliny are a good first hand account) and as I understand it, some modern scholars think he had some closet Christians in his staff and confidence. Hadrian was a totally different animal when it came to Christians, not least because of his Grecophilia.
Posted on 9/20/18 at 9:06 pm to Tiger1242
quote:
Jews in Germany did absolutely nothing to the Germans
This isn’t wholly true. Many benefitted from war profiteering.
The ashkenazi Jews have historically been involved in financial fields due to their insular nature and belief system. That and they are good at it. Any time a Certain sect is benefitting and the common people are suffering there will be animosity.
Many Germans blamed the Jews for certain aspects of WW1 and the following depression.
And not just in Germany, but all of Europe. It’s a consequence of them being a people apart.
Not justifying it but you can’t objectively say they had NO hand in their perception. They cultivated it.
Posted on 9/20/18 at 9:09 pm to AbuTheMonkey
quote:
For the record, it was actually Hadrian that oversaw the response to the Third Revolt. Trajan was (for his time) relatively lenient towards Christians. He didn’t actively seek them out and prosecute them as long as they gave the correct respect due the emperor (his letters with Pliny are a good first hand account) and as I understand it, some modern scholars think he had some closet Christians in his staff and confidence. Hadrian was a totally different animal when it came to Christians, not least because of his Grecophilia.
Trajan was the general who put down the Jewish revolt for his father Vespasian which is one of the things he did that made him so popular. And Hadrian oversaw the Third Jewish revolt because Trajan died before he could put it down.
Also there are many primary sources of Trajan telling his governors to “offer the Christians a chance to deny their god” and if they don’t then execute them. I know that’s par for the course for that time but still doesn’t make him a sympathetic figure to Christians of the time
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