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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 5/11/22 at 6:17 pm to Pfft
Posted on 5/11/22 at 6:17 pm to Pfft
quote:
Read my post again, I said it is always a slippery slope. Not seems like, it is. Sometime it is needed for us to war, a lot more times it is not.
I will not let anyone come into my house and take my shite, kill or rape anyone of my family, but I am not going to go out in my town getting in between neighbors fights.
That is because you have not signed a treaty with your neighbor that guarantees your neighbor security assurances and assistance if the borders of his property are violated. The USA has signed such a treaty with Ukraine it is called the Budapest Memorandum. When Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 it left the USA with 2 choices. We could back out of that treaty or we could honor it and provide assistance. The USA had to make another decision about honoring the treaty or backing out in February of this year when Russia reinvaded Ukraine. Backing out of the Budapest Memorandum would have made the USA look weak especially after the disasters of the USA's withdrawals from Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA has a lot of enemies and a weak looking USA is a tempting target. Not to mention the collateral damage caused by the hit to our international reputation would cause. Yes providing Ukraine with the security assurances and assistance that we promised is a slippery slope. However, I agree with the decision that the Obama, Trump, and Biden admins all made. The slippery slope created by backing out of the Budapest Memorandum would be much more severe than the slippery slope created from honoring out treaty obligations.
This post was edited on 5/11/22 at 6:29 pm
2
Posted on 5/11/22 at 6:18 pm to WeeWee
Bingo.
Posted on 5/11/22 at 6:51 pm to Centinel
quote:
Rapid Trident is paying off very, very well boys and girls.
What type of high tech weaponry is that, missile or artillery? When y’all talk about these weapons systems it’s like a foreign language to me.
Posted on 5/11/22 at 6:59 pm to gizmothepug
quote:
What type of high tech weaponry is that, missile or artillery?
It's not. It's a joint US/NATO training exercise that's been going on with Ukraine (hence Trident) for over twenty years. It's why the Ukrainian military is running circles around Russia. They've been trained in NATO doctrine, and they've bought in to the need for a strong NCO corps and mission command down to the lowest ranks.
They are showing why NATO doctrine and weapon systems are far, far superior to Russian equivalents.
It's also why China has basically said "Ya, we cool" to the west over this.
This post was edited on 5/11/22 at 7:07 pm
Posted on 5/11/22 at 7:05 pm to WeeWee
quote:
That is because you have not signed a treaty with your neighbor that guarantees your neighbor security assurances and assistance if the borders of his property are violated. The USA has signed such a treaty with Ukraine it is called the Budapest Memorandum. When Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 it left the USA with 2 choices. We could back out of that treaty or we could honor it and provide assistance.
I honestly think a lot of folks aren’t aware of this. The US had to provide assistance - this was the agreement in exchange for Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons. If we bailed on our assurances under that agreement, we would have zero credibility in future non-proliferation negotiations. (Russia obviously violated their agreement as well, but their credibility was already in the toilet anyway.)
You could certainly argue that we’ve already fulfilled our end of the original agreement. But then it goes further than that - if Russia succeeds and Ukraine’s government falls, it sends the message to every other country that nuclear weapons are basically a security necessity.
That’s without even mentioning the host of other geopolitical reasons the US doesn’t want Russia to succeed in this invasion.
ETA: It’s worth mentioning that this is why foreign policy isn’t always as straightforward as it immediately seems. Even if the US/NATO had no real reason to care about Ukraine’s fate, we absolutely have a reason to care about preventing nuclear proliferation. Geopolitics are a much longer game than many folks seem to realize.
This post was edited on 5/11/22 at 7:09 pm
Posted on 5/11/22 at 7:31 pm to Centinel
It’s what separates our military from others
NCOs are able to make real time decisions
Russian and Chinese they have to wait till a high up officer says it’s ok
NCOs are able to make real time decisions
Russian and Chinese they have to wait till a high up officer says it’s ok
Posted on 5/11/22 at 7:41 pm to lostinbr
The commentary and discussion in this thread is a welcome relief vs whats happened to the PT thread.
I enjoy discussing and debating issues of the day with others. As a society, we have really lost the ability to disagree respectfully. Too many people are so invested in their worldview that they won't stop for a minute to consider anything that doesn't fit that view. The recent tendency of many to insult instead of discussing is very tedious to me.
So to all you participants in this thread who are actually having a conversation, I thank you.
I enjoy discussing and debating issues of the day with others. As a society, we have really lost the ability to disagree respectfully. Too many people are so invested in their worldview that they won't stop for a minute to consider anything that doesn't fit that view. The recent tendency of many to insult instead of discussing is very tedious to me.
So to all you participants in this thread who are actually having a conversation, I thank you.
Posted on 5/11/22 at 8:13 pm to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
It’s what separates our military from others
NCOs are able to make real time decisions
I didn't truly understand the importance of NCOs until I was a company commander. Holy shite was that an eye-opening experience.
I ended up being the top company in the Brigade by every metric. And it had absolutely nothing to do with me, outside of me empowering my NCOs. Backbone of the Army is such an understatement.
Posted on 5/11/22 at 8:16 pm to Chromdome35
quote:
The commentary and discussion in this thread is a welcome relief vs whats happened to the PT thread.
There's quite a few posters in this thread that I'll throw down with over domestic issues, as I'm sure they can attest to. But this isn't a domestic issue, and I can separate our domestic differences when it comes to international politics and policy.
Posted on 5/11/22 at 8:27 pm to lostinbr
quote:
You could certainly argue that we’ve already fulfilled our end of the original agreement. But then it goes further than that - if Russia succeeds and Ukraine’s government falls, it sends the message to every other country that nuclear weapons are basically a security necessity.
I didn't even think about that but you are right.
Posted on 5/11/22 at 9:21 pm to Pfft
The resupply for ongoing conflicts get them mansions and Ferrari money.
Original contract vs change order.
Original contract vs change order.
Posted on 5/11/22 at 9:53 pm to Centinel
quote:
There's quite a few posters in this thread that I'll throw down with over domestic issues, as I'm sure they can attest to. But this isn't a domestic issue, and I can separate our domestic differences when it comes to international politics and policy.
I honestly can’t remember a time I agreed with you so consistently. And the grand irony is that, being a libertarian, foreign policy would not have been my first guess as to where we would find common ground
Posted on 5/11/22 at 10:13 pm to Chromdome35
quote:
As a society, we have really lost the ability to disagree respectfully. Too many people are so invested in their worldview that they won't stop for a minute to consider anything that doesn't fit that view. The recent tendency of many to insult instead of discussing is very tedious to me.
Always been true to some extent. 19th century political campaigns were vicious, and of course we fought a war over political differences. But I don't think we've ever been in a situation where so many ordinary people sorted themselves into Us vs Them based on political beliefs. Including cutting off family members and lifelong friends over political differences that often are relatively insignificant once you get past the inflammatory rhetoric.
I don't favor censorship, but most of the blame goes to modern media, including social media, and the inability of people to think critically about what's being pushed at them and why.
This post was edited on 5/11/22 at 10:35 pm
Posted on 5/11/22 at 10:29 pm to Joshjrn
Has Stidham8 chimed in on the pontoon bridge shelling yet? I’m sure it’s some 4D chess move on the part of Russia to make Ukraine spend precious artillery ammunition destroying so much old equipment crossing the river that it eventually builds up into a more permanent bridge structure.
This post was edited on 5/11/22 at 10:30 pm
Posted on 5/11/22 at 11:32 pm to StormyMcMan
quote:
Burning oil depot shot on fire #Belgorod #Russia
Posted on 5/11/22 at 11:34 pm to Pfft
quote:All Attacked Us.
Taliban, then Saddam, then Gaddafi, then Noriega, then the Vietcong, North Koreans, Cubans, Germans, Spanish, Mexicans, Japanese, Philippines'.
The boogie mans going to get us. Not many of those people ever attacked us.
Directly responsible for 80s drug epidemic.
Posted on 5/11/22 at 11:37 pm to TideCPA
quote:
Has Stidham8 chimed in on the pontoon bridge shelling yet?
You doubt his analysis on the War?
Mother Russia is going to wrap this shite up soon. Just watch.
Remember: This isn't like Iraq where one army is vastly inferior to the other.
Oh....wait...
Posted on 5/11/22 at 11:38 pm to Pfft
quote:
hen Noriega
I addressed this earlier in this thread.
Are you saying we should not have disposed Noriega?
I have family from Panama who would love to debate you on this point.
Posted on 5/11/22 at 11:41 pm to TideCPA
quote:
it’s some 4D chess move on the part of Russia to make Ukraine spend precious artillery ammunition destroying so much old equipment crossing the river that it eventually builds up into a more permanent bridge structure.
You got it all wrong.
Russia wants to dam the river, For reasons.
This is the fastest way they can think to do just that. Let the Ukrainians fill it up for them with their ammo.
WHat's a few bridges and tanks sacrificed for that goal?
This post was edited on 5/11/22 at 11:41 pm
Posted on 5/11/22 at 11:44 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
Jim Rockford
You are one of the reasons I enjoy having political discord on the OT over the PT.
We don't agree on every thing, but at least we can have debates over here without too many morons just slinging insults and catchphrases.
The OT has become what the PT used to be.
This post was edited on 5/11/22 at 11:45 pm
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