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Message
re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 9/18/24 at 9:06 am to NC_Tigah
Posted on 9/18/24 at 9:06 am to NC_Tigah
Instead of posting silly pictures of Biden looking like a dumbass, why don't you just ask me to clarify what I mean?
Firstly, the sanctions regime instituted after the US exited the JCPOA were part of the maximum pressure campaign, which had a political goal. That goal was to get ballistic missile restrictions added to a new JCPOA. The fall of 2019 saw the campaign ramp up, with Iran responding with measures like the Abqaiq-Khurais attack in Saudi Arabia. But that campaign failed in even getting a meeting with the Iranians, as Ayatollah Khamenei expressly forbade any further negotiations with the US. The best example of this is at the UN General Assembly meeting in November of 2019, where Macron tried to set up a meeting between Trump and Rouhani, but Rouhani refused. LINK
The above NYT article gives a very interesting impression of the lengths Macron was willing to go to in order to facilitate a meeting, though the article is ruined by the wide degree of editorializing on display.
Secondly, Iran has gotten used to evading sanctions, as they have been under sanctions since the revolution. The IRGC in particular has developed supply chains which circumvent sanctions, where they used the UAE and Dubai as a hub. What people need to understand about Iran is that it has a base of Shia support that is multi-national. To showcase the fervor of Shia support, one of the largest gatherings of people yearly occurs in Karbala in Iraq, with nearly 30 million people attending each year. In other words, nearly 15% of Shia people in the world attend that event. I bring this up to highlight that Iran has a lot of ability to avoid sanctions by leveraging the inherent support they have as the 'leader' of the Shia world. For a long time, the Iranians used Shia foundations to circumvent monetary restrictions. And in areas of the world which do not have the same Sunni/Shia dynamic, you see other ways they can circumvent these sanctions.
For example, if the Chinese are to be believed, they import twice as much Malaysian crude as the country produces. How is this possible? By virtue of rebranding Iranian oil. There are a litany of other examples of how Iranian goods still end up at market when they technically should be sanctioned.
The point of this is to argue that the sanctions program did not have the desired effect, as the Iranians did not negotiate with Trump, though they did begin negotiations with Biden, which I believe was intentional. Those talks have not been fruitful either. Iran has developed a resistance economy designed around circumventing sanctions. It is grossly inefficient, but it is still 'good-enough' to avoid retribution on Iranian soil, which is the 'red-line' for the Iranians. They leverage their inherent support with Shia Muslims everywhere (except for Azerbaijan, with whom they have a tumultuous relationship because of their ties with Turkey and Israel) to circumvent those sanctions.
Unfortunately, sanctions are not going to be enough to displace Iranian proxies from Damascus, which is of paramount concern to the Israelis, nor is it enough to dissuade arms transfers between Iran and its proxies.
The evasion of the sanctions program is also instructive to the Russian situation, which now requires the EU to employ a sanctions envoy, David O'Sullivan, to try to ensure that sanctions are enforced, particularly in Eastern Europe.
Firstly, the sanctions regime instituted after the US exited the JCPOA were part of the maximum pressure campaign, which had a political goal. That goal was to get ballistic missile restrictions added to a new JCPOA. The fall of 2019 saw the campaign ramp up, with Iran responding with measures like the Abqaiq-Khurais attack in Saudi Arabia. But that campaign failed in even getting a meeting with the Iranians, as Ayatollah Khamenei expressly forbade any further negotiations with the US. The best example of this is at the UN General Assembly meeting in November of 2019, where Macron tried to set up a meeting between Trump and Rouhani, but Rouhani refused. LINK
The above NYT article gives a very interesting impression of the lengths Macron was willing to go to in order to facilitate a meeting, though the article is ruined by the wide degree of editorializing on display.
Secondly, Iran has gotten used to evading sanctions, as they have been under sanctions since the revolution. The IRGC in particular has developed supply chains which circumvent sanctions, where they used the UAE and Dubai as a hub. What people need to understand about Iran is that it has a base of Shia support that is multi-national. To showcase the fervor of Shia support, one of the largest gatherings of people yearly occurs in Karbala in Iraq, with nearly 30 million people attending each year. In other words, nearly 15% of Shia people in the world attend that event. I bring this up to highlight that Iran has a lot of ability to avoid sanctions by leveraging the inherent support they have as the 'leader' of the Shia world. For a long time, the Iranians used Shia foundations to circumvent monetary restrictions. And in areas of the world which do not have the same Sunni/Shia dynamic, you see other ways they can circumvent these sanctions.
For example, if the Chinese are to be believed, they import twice as much Malaysian crude as the country produces. How is this possible? By virtue of rebranding Iranian oil. There are a litany of other examples of how Iranian goods still end up at market when they technically should be sanctioned.
The point of this is to argue that the sanctions program did not have the desired effect, as the Iranians did not negotiate with Trump, though they did begin negotiations with Biden, which I believe was intentional. Those talks have not been fruitful either. Iran has developed a resistance economy designed around circumventing sanctions. It is grossly inefficient, but it is still 'good-enough' to avoid retribution on Iranian soil, which is the 'red-line' for the Iranians. They leverage their inherent support with Shia Muslims everywhere (except for Azerbaijan, with whom they have a tumultuous relationship because of their ties with Turkey and Israel) to circumvent those sanctions.
Unfortunately, sanctions are not going to be enough to displace Iranian proxies from Damascus, which is of paramount concern to the Israelis, nor is it enough to dissuade arms transfers between Iran and its proxies.
The evasion of the sanctions program is also instructive to the Russian situation, which now requires the EU to employ a sanctions envoy, David O'Sullivan, to try to ensure that sanctions are enforced, particularly in Eastern Europe.
Posted on 9/18/24 at 9:12 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Brother, you are the one being emotional by inventing a person who somehow happens to have all the traits you find abhorrent.
I'm emotional because I made an observation?
quote:
For the obsession you have with offers of literacy, you argue remarkably poorly, which isn't surprising given the content of your posts. Maybe save those offers for yourself.
I noticed that you haven't been typing half of your responses as if they are addressed to your plug about a $20 skunk weed transaction as much, so I think I've accomplished something here.
quote:
How about you just link the posts if you feel that they are dispositive examples of the exact thing to which you are referring?
"Just dig through hundreds of comments, link the examples, then when you do I'll just nitpick your examples and still say you're making it up"
No thanks
This post was edited on 9/18/24 at 9:13 am
Posted on 9/18/24 at 9:18 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Oh, there's no question that the sanctions have been economically devastating for Iran.
The point is that Iran's military and nuclear program have advanced in spite of the sanctions.
A problem we have ("we" being the west) is that we underestimate just how determined the bad actors in the world are to remain in power.
We sanction their economies and they just let their people suffer while still funding the military just as much (maybe more so in some cases) because as long as their troops are being paid and their military isn't a total pushover they can maintain power.
quote:
But neither worked. Iran continues to progress towards making nukes.
Nukes are the only reason North Korea still exists as a state. For all the talk here about paper tigers, its pretty clear we handle nuclear armed nations with kid gloves and Iran sees and wants that kind of treatment for themselves.
Posted on 9/18/24 at 9:18 am to VolSquatch
quote:
I'm emotional because I made an observation?
You made up a person and personified them in the exact way which would make you angry.
quote:
I noticed that you haven't been typing half of your responses as if they are addressed to your plug about a $20 skunk weed transaction as much, so I think I've accomplished something here.
Lol, brah, you desperately need to take a class on rhetoric.
quote:
"Just dig through hundreds of comments, link the examples, then when you do I'll just nitpick your examples and still say you're making it up"
What? You were the one who brought up the comments. The onus is on you to provide the evidence, especially because you profess to have seen this evidence. Neglecting to provide it is just another example of why you really need to take an English 102 class. Just dogshit argumentation skills.
Posted on 9/18/24 at 9:25 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
You were the one who brought up the comments. The onus is on you to provide the evidence, especially because you profess to have seen this evidence. Neglecting to provide it is just another example of why you really need to take an English 102 class. Just dogshit argumentation skills.
I don't care if anyone believes me or not
If you're that curious go look for yourself. I know it doesn't help my argument, and I don't care
You've proven yourself either incapable of reading or just plain dishonest, so with you in particular and a couple of other posters I care even less because I hold your opinions in so little regard.
quote:
You made up a person and personified them in the exact way which would make you angry.
Does every opinion you think is fricked up make you angry? I think its fricked up to support taxing unrealized capital gains, but it doesn't make me angry
quote:
brah
You're backsliding
Posted on 9/18/24 at 9:32 am to GOP_Tiger
Several indications that Ukraine used its new jet-powered drones in the attack. Here's one:
Loading Twitter/X Embed...
If tweet fails to load, click here.Posted on 9/18/24 at 9:36 am to VolSquatch
quote:
If you're that curious go look for yourself. I know it doesn't help my argument, and I don't care
I've read the whole thread brah. I don't think your observation is accurate, nor do I think it is a dispositive example of anyone other than some imaginary figure you've invented. Glad we agree.
quote:
Does every opinion you think is fricked up make you angry?
When I say you really need to take a class on rhetoric, this is what I mean. Poor thing.
quote:
You're backsliding
Nah, I'm shredding the gnar.
Posted on 9/18/24 at 9:46 am to NC_Tigah
First the two charts on oil production and export don't jive. Second, when did Iran begin exporting Brent (from the North Sea) crude oil?
I know for a fact how easy it is to buy refined products from Iran. It just shows UAE as origin. Just one seller has a very large and modern lube oil blending operation comparable to Exxon in Port Allen or Shell in Houston. The blending plant was brand new in 2018. I have copies of its P&ID's That is a value added product worth several times more than gasoline these days, even before taxes.
there is also a good amount of crude oil sold to small buyers by the export terminal managers which leaves on smaller than pre WWII tankers to pump to mother ships out in the Indian Ocean, which never hits even Iran's own data. If you think that India isn't getting Iranian oil, my check is in the mail to you and I have snow ski resorts for sale in Cocodrie, Key West, and adjacent to the Panama Canal.
I know for a fact how easy it is to buy refined products from Iran. It just shows UAE as origin. Just one seller has a very large and modern lube oil blending operation comparable to Exxon in Port Allen or Shell in Houston. The blending plant was brand new in 2018. I have copies of its P&ID's That is a value added product worth several times more than gasoline these days, even before taxes.
there is also a good amount of crude oil sold to small buyers by the export terminal managers which leaves on smaller than pre WWII tankers to pump to mother ships out in the Indian Ocean, which never hits even Iran's own data. If you think that India isn't getting Iranian oil, my check is in the mail to you and I have snow ski resorts for sale in Cocodrie, Key West, and adjacent to the Panama Canal.
Posted on 9/18/24 at 9:54 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
I've read the whole thread brah
Not very well, clearly
Posted on 9/18/24 at 9:59 am to CitizenK
Is Toropets still cooking off more explosions? Sure seemed to go on for hours from 3:30 AM local time to well after sunrise.
Posted on 9/18/24 at 10:25 am to crazy4lsu
quote:Well aren't you flying all over the room.
Instead of posting silly pictures of Biden looking like a dumbass, why don't you just ask me to clarify what I mean?
I didn't need clarification. Here was the exchange
quote:Your contention was Trump sanctions were ineffective. You were wrong. Full stop. Biden gutted the Trump actions. So when you responded to a post about Trump's actions in terms of "where we are today," is was a foolish posit.
What are you talking about? Trump put like 1,500 individual sanctions on Iran and weakened them immensely.
----
He really didn't 'weaken them.' The Iranians have developed methods around sanctions and the point of that sanctions regime ... Furthermore, look at where we are today. Iran and Iranian proxies aren't weaker from the implementation of that sanction program
Then again, the next time you feel the urge to pop off with a JuniorHigh-level attempted insult akin to "pretending you know anything about the ME," perhaps you'll at least pause long enough to avoid falling face first into a doo-doo pile.
Posted on 9/18/24 at 11:27 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Your contention was Trump sanctions were ineffective. You were wrong. Full stop.
Nope. They weren't weakened because they have a robust system in place to circumvent sanctions.
quote:
Biden gutted the Trump actions.
Lol what? They have been defying sanctions for a long time.
quote:
So when you responded to a post about Trump's actions in terms of "where we are today," is was a foolish posit.
Nope. Ayatollah Khamenei expressly forbade any negotiations with the Trump administration, and in the respect I described, Trump's actions failed. The sanctions aren't going to produce regime change. The carrot of sanctions relief is no longer strong enough to produce anything worthwhile in regards to Iran. They've lived under sanctions for nearly half a century. Where we are in terms of Iran's intransigence is due directly to Trump's FP failure. Which doesn't mean that other president's have had success or something. You just don't have the knowledge base nor the willingness to be dispassionate about the topic, of which you know very little.
The resistance networks of IRGC and more broadly, Shia groups in the Iranian sphere, are extremely robust. Those groups are involved in sundry activities such as the drug trade and weapons trafficking. The persistence of these networks is beyond the ability of a sanctions campaign to change.
Posted on 9/18/24 at 12:12 pm to VolSquatch
quote:
Nukes are the only reason North Korea still exists as a state.
Weird, how did they manage to survive all those decades before getting nukes???
Posted on 9/18/24 at 12:13 pm to CitizenK
Russia needs a Anti Smoking initiative.
Loading Twitter/X Embed...
If tweet fails to load, click here.Posted on 9/18/24 at 12:14 pm to Chromdome35
Posted on 9/18/24 at 12:16 pm to Chromdome35
Google map of the former weapons depot
https://maps.app.goo.gl/WfV1UHf9LKAPDD9q9
Zoomed out view so you can see the location relative to Moscow and Ukraine
https://maps.app.goo.gl/DHY8BkzUY9fyFVyA8
https://maps.app.goo.gl/WfV1UHf9LKAPDD9q9
Zoomed out view so you can see the location relative to Moscow and Ukraine
https://maps.app.goo.gl/DHY8BkzUY9fyFVyA8
This post was edited on 9/18/24 at 12:17 pm
Posted on 9/18/24 at 12:20 pm to VolSquatch
quote:
Nukes are the only reason North Korea still exists as a state.
Being a welfare ward of China is the only reason NK hasn't completely starved to death... the South Korean government does not want to have to take care of North Koreans (they don't really like having to take care of poor South Koreans)... there's no invasion/reunification movement through military action movement in the South, except for the SK Left, who wants Kim to take over South Korea.
Posted on 9/18/24 at 12:21 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:With no sanction quantification, relative or not, that is an absolutely stupid comment. The audacity of blind presumption regarding anyone else's knowledgebase issued from such a painfully clueless perspective is breathtaking. Now you've doubled down.
They've lived under sanctions for nearly half a century.
As Lil Wayne puts it, "Take them shoes off your teeth and stop runnin' yo' mouth."
Posted on 9/18/24 at 12:34 pm to Chromdome35
That is insane how big that area of fires/explosions is.
Posted on 9/18/24 at 12:34 pm to Chromdome35
Some pictures from the ammo depot pre attack showing LOTS of munitions being stored in open air.
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