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Message
re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 6/7/23 at 2:13 pm to northshorebamaman
Posted on 6/7/23 at 2:13 pm to northshorebamaman
quote:
The whole Ukrainian “Nazis” thing is difficult for most Westerners to comprehend. This is because from the Western perspective Nazis were purely evil and bad and did nothing good. However, from the Ukrainian perspective, things are not quite as simple.
First you have to understand the history of Ukraine in the yeas before WWII. Ukraine had been part of the Russian Empire since the 18th century until it fell in 1917. While part of the Russian Empire, they saw their language and customs suppressed by Russia. Once the Russian Empire collapsed, Ukraine claimed independence. From the Ukrainian point of view, their independence was made possible by Germany defeating the Russian Empire.
But as soon as Ukraine declared independence, they found themselves embroiled in multiple wars and eventually were caught up in the Russian Civil War. In the Russian Civil War, thousands of Ukrainians were slaughtered and the country was conquered by the new Soviet Union. Under Soviet control, the misery for Ukrainians only intensified. The repressive Soviet regime arrested, tortured, and deported massive numbers of Ukrainians. People lost their homes, their farms, and thanks to forced “collectivization”, a man-man famine raged through Ukraine in the 1930s that killed millions. You can find out the details of this famine by searching the term “Holodomor”, it’s brutal. So basically, by 1941, Russia has been oppressing Ukraine for a century and a half and that repression had progressed to outright genocide.
Thus, when the Germans invaded in June 1941 for many Ukrainians, they saw the Germans as liberators. They saw what the Germans did to Russians and wanted to help them crush Russia for what Russia had done to them for generations. This is why, even to this day, there are some Ukrainians who view the Nazis differently than we do in the west. It’s because from their perspective, the Soviets were far worse and the Nazis at least tried to rid the world of the scourge of communism and all the atrocities it brings.
The Germans made very little effort to gain support of conquered populations. All they wanted was to exploit resources and labor and exterminate the undesirables, so they quickly went from liberators to oppressors. I doubt there's many Ukrainians or any former Nazi Germany subjects that view Nazi occupation as desirable. They weren't much better than Stalin, if at all. There were some collaborators, sure, but that wasn't the majority. The association of Nazis with Ukrainians today is dubious.
2
Posted on 6/7/23 at 2:23 pm to DakIsNoLB
quote:
The association of Nazis with Ukrainians today is dubious.
To me, the display of Nazism in some units always felt more like a general "frick you" to Russia than a regard for Facsist ideals.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 2:27 pm to AU86
quote:
What they are doing in Moldova right now is the next step.
Russia has ALWAYS kept Moldova unstable by supporting their puppet separatists in Transnistria.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 2:53 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Western leaders are not calling it a "tragedy." It was an "attack." Macron is one of those I would most expect to be wishy-washy about this, and he's not. He's crystal clear.
The dam was 100% under Russian control. There is no evidence that it was hit by a rocket or a shell. Whether it was gross negligence (as GOP_Tiger has written about extensively) or an explosion from the inside of the dam structure, those would be Russian actions, Russian fault.
For anyone who says that it may have been Ukraine, the question really is, How could it possibly have been?
Posted on 6/7/23 at 3:03 pm to TBoy
There was in fact an explosion from the turbine room. I seriously doubt there would have been any flammable material in that room except drums of lubricants under normal circumstances.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 3:08 pm to TBoy
quote:
The dam was 100% under Russian control.
What are you basing this on? I would like to know so I can disprove Putinist who say Ukraine he equal means to access the dam as the Putinist
Posted on 6/7/23 at 3:17 pm to BrainKellyRespecter
quote:
What are you basing this on?
The dam's control structure was on the Russian side of the river. The entrance "inside" the dam was on the Russian side of the river.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 3:21 pm to BrainKellyRespecter
Again 90% of the top level NAZIS became Americans, we were the destination of choice even for the SS.
Then again there are more neo Nazis in America now than in Germany. So please stop with all the Nazi bullshite. Some of my good friends were Nazis, they were responsible things like landing on the moon, NASA, the atomic weapon system, most of our advanced weapons and technology from the 50-60s, significant medical advancement, etc etc.
Just stop already
Then again there are more neo Nazis in America now than in Germany. So please stop with all the Nazi bullshite. Some of my good friends were Nazis, they were responsible things like landing on the moon, NASA, the atomic weapon system, most of our advanced weapons and technology from the 50-60s, significant medical advancement, etc etc.
Just stop already
Posted on 6/7/23 at 3:21 pm to TBoy
quote:
For anyone who says that it may have been Ukraine, the question really is, How could it possibly have been?
Have you ever watched Where Eagles Dare?
What about Guns of Navarone?
Bridge Over the River Kwai?
One Flew Over thd Cuckoos Nest?
Posted on 6/7/23 at 3:23 pm to TutHillTiger
quote:
So please stop with all the Nazi bullshite. Some of my good friends were Nazis, they were responsible things like landing on the moon, NASA, the atomic weapon system, most of our advanced weapons and technology from the 50-60s, significant medical advancement, etc etc
Meh, they're also responsible for one of the worst genocides in human history, but hey...they designed cool roads and rockets, so ya know...
Posted on 6/7/23 at 3:26 pm to facher08
quote:
To me, the display of Nazism in some units always felt more like a general "frick you" to Russia than a regard for Facsist ideals.
In the context of Ukrainian soldiers/militia adopting such symbols, I do think this is a big part of it. There is no greater enemy in Russia’s recent history than Nazi Germany, so I assume this is in the tradition of military groups taunting their enemies - somewhat in the way Americans might draw pigs or cartoon Mohammed’s on bombs going into Afghanistan or Japanese might flash their rising sun battle flag for some competition with South Korea. “Nazi” symbolism is also among the scariest in the western world, and it’s pretty common place for men going into combat to decorate themselves with threatening images, both to intimidate the enemy and to build up themselves into the monsters they need to be.
I think another factor is people joining the military often are seeking a kind of strength in brotherhood - and that was a primary tale told by nazis. There are well documented issues with neo nazis in the modern German army, and I think that issue reflects the reality of the type of people who join the military in functionally pacifist nation. It also doesn’t mean modern German is a Nazi state.
And of course you can’t discount rank anti-semetism and scapegoating. People are subjected to it constantly and it’s impacts and incalculable. I am loathe to direct people to his first Twitter episode, but Tucker Carlson discussed the dam break last night. Zelensky’s judiasm has nothing to do with that story, and yet he referred to Zelensky in the span of three minutes as “sweaty”, “shifty,” and “rat like.” That is simply calling Zelensky a Jew for no other reason other than to present the existence of that fact to his audience as a pejorative. And it’s coming from a man who a month ago the most watched man in American cable news. There will always be a healthy market for someone telling people “it’s not you and it’s not me it’s that person behind the tree.” At the end of the day scapegoating is the central tenant of nazism, and it will always be embraced.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 3:28 pm to TutHillTiger
quote:
TutHillTiger
You seem clinically insane
Posted on 6/7/23 at 3:40 pm to ned nederlander
quote:
ker Carlson discussed the dam break last night. Zelensky’s judiasm has nothing to do with that story, and yet he referred to Zelensky in the span of three minutes as “sweaty”, “shifty,” and “rat like
Bingo. It’s staggering hypocrisy, just like all the rabid anti semites on PT pretending to care about the Azov gang. One of my favorite all time PT threads was about how Einstein was a Nazi and should have been executed, full of the usual anti semitic tropes along the way . Seriously.
For the record I agree with those saying that the nazis in eastern Ukraine are really ultra nationalists rather than any adherents to national socialism or anti Judaism. Russia instead has historically been arguably the greatest institutional incubator and exporter of actual anti semitism. See the Protocols and the pogroms. Not that any of the muh nazi crowd actually gives a shite about anti semitism.
This post was edited on 6/7/23 at 3:46 pm
Posted on 6/7/23 at 3:53 pm to REG861
From UKRINFORM...
Tavria direction: Enemy lost almost three companies of soldiers, 47 units of military equipment
07.06.2023 23:10
In the Tavria direction, units of the missile troops and artillery of Ukraine’s Defense Forces completed 1,354 fire missions over the past day. The enemy lost almost three companies of soldiers, killed and wounded.
General Oleksandr Tarnavskyi, the Commander of the Tavria Operational and Strategic Group of Troops, said this in a post on Telegram, Ukrinform reports.
In addition, Ukrainian forces destroyed 47 units of enemy weapons and military equipment, including 12 IFVs, 10 tanks, three 2A65 Msta-B howitzers, three BM-21 Grad MLRS, two D-30 howitzers, one 2S4 Tyulpan mortar, a Su-25 aircraft, Tor air defense system, Eleron and Orlan-10 UAVs.
Tavria direction: Enemy lost almost three companies of soldiers, 47 units of military equipment
07.06.2023 23:10
In the Tavria direction, units of the missile troops and artillery of Ukraine’s Defense Forces completed 1,354 fire missions over the past day. The enemy lost almost three companies of soldiers, killed and wounded.
General Oleksandr Tarnavskyi, the Commander of the Tavria Operational and Strategic Group of Troops, said this in a post on Telegram, Ukrinform reports.
In addition, Ukrainian forces destroyed 47 units of enemy weapons and military equipment, including 12 IFVs, 10 tanks, three 2A65 Msta-B howitzers, three BM-21 Grad MLRS, two D-30 howitzers, one 2S4 Tyulpan mortar, a Su-25 aircraft, Tor air defense system, Eleron and Orlan-10 UAVs.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 4:05 pm to REG861
The OT board in general doesn’t give a crap about nazis being in with the U’s. The R’s are 100 percent communists. Go back to political board.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 4:09 pm to jeffsdad
quote:
The R’s are 100 percent communists.
Well that’s as hyperbolic as saying 100% of Ukrainians are Nazis. Probably 90% of the Russian troops on the battlefield weren’t even alive the last time Russia was a communist country.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 4:16 pm to ColtRange
Could be insane my friend but I know my damn history, and tired of the bullshite. Learn ours before you start ducking with a country for something we are actually much worse on.
We did what we did because it was in our national interest and I am not apologizing to anyone for it. We tried to make up for our mistake, ignorance, and bullshite to the Jewish community afterwards but we didn’t do right at first it’s just that simple
We did what we did because it was in our national interest and I am not apologizing to anyone for it. We tried to make up for our mistake, ignorance, and bullshite to the Jewish community afterwards but we didn’t do right at first it’s just that simple
Posted on 6/7/23 at 4:24 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Here's a story from a Russian Telegram about the dam that actually makes sense. That's not to say that it's true, but it's the first thing that I've heard that seems plausible. The TLDR is that Russia sappers messed up and accidentally blew up the dam earlier than they were supposed to.
One variation that I saw on this is that it wasn't messed up from a timing perspective but rather in scale - the intention was to cause a small breach to cause issues for the Ukrainian troops on the islands down river and divert attention from other events.
Due to either incompetence or existing damage weakening the damn and the extremely high water levels caused the result was considerably more serious than intended.
This see's some traction with the various reactions, especially how the Russian Mayor initially said it was minor and then rapidly escalated what happened.
Either way this makes for one of the more plausible reasons behind what happened though I am still very much in the indirect/accidental camp.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 4:25 pm to DakIsNoLB
quote:
The Germans made very little effort to gain support of conquered populations. All they wanted was to exploit resources and labor and exterminate the undesirables, so they quickly went from liberators to oppressors. I doubt there's many Ukrainians or any former Nazi Germany subjects that view Nazi occupation as desirable. They weren't much better than Stalin, if at all. There were some collaborators, sure, but that wasn't the majority. The association of Nazis with Ukrainians today is dubious.
Agree, I think “hating Russians more than Germans” is being conflated with liking the Nazis and it should not be.
It also needs to remembered that there are very few left who actually lived under Nazis' there are plenty of people with living memory of life under the Soviet's. This accounts for the much greater hatred of Russian's than Germany there now. I've noticed in the my travels to Poland the exact same thing. Despite the country being destroyed by Germany in WW2 the people there have way more hatred towards the Russians than the Germans.
Posted on 6/7/23 at 4:35 pm to OutsideObserver
quote:In that case they'd have open floodgates. An unrepaired breach of any size in a dam is inevitably catastrophic.
cause a small breach to cause issues
This post was edited on 6/7/23 at 4:36 pm
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